City Council - December 7, 2017 - Part 1 of 2
Members. Accounts off you can please take your seats. Members. This. Meeting, is now resumed. Members. We have a presentation, this morning to recognize, Toronto, paramedic staff, on winning the global trauma competition. I would like to call upon mayor Tory to come forward for the presentation. Well. Madam Speaker and. Colleagues. On council and all the ladies and gentlemen who are who. Are here today with us I think. If you're like me I had a chance even just recently to go up to the new Wilson, Avenue facility. That our paramedics, have and. That the citizens of Toronto have made available for, themselves to be well served but also for our paramedics, and what. You realize is not only is that a wonderful place, that has been put in place thanks to the investment, by the city but, the work that goes on there thanks to the people is. Remarkable, and of course it isn't in that place really where the work is done as much as it is on the streets of Toronto each. And every day and I think often. Times with a lot of the services that the, city provides they're. Taken for granted by people and I guess that's a good thing in a way that people know those services are there, but, at the same time I think when our. Our. First responders, go and participate in competitions, it's. Particularly wonderful, for us to be able to see that kind of external validation as, it were of something we know which, is that they're among the very best in. The world and. That that's the good fortune of the, people of Toronto to have those people, at. Their service and so, today I want to ask you to join me in recognizing a, remarkable, achievement by, four of our Toronto paramedic. Services staff, and except. There's five standing or well the chief the, chief is there so the chief is there but, but the chief and four of his men. And women. November. The fourth advanced. Care paramedics, Rachel Jane er Christopher. Rotolo Jason. Benham and a team coach superintendent, Martin Johnson who, were seated over there but who are now standing over here, competed. In a patient, competition, in Quebec City at the, International, trauma life support conference. Or itls, for short and. Just. To take note when I said best in the world you know sometimes people throw these things around but this was, a competition, that involved teams from around, the, world as they. Apply, the itls. Standards, of patient care to triage and treat trauma patients, and simulated, scenarios. That are quite, challenging and quite dramatic, you know you feel like you're there, and it's actually happening in front of your eyes and they were up, against, teams. From Ontario, and from Quebec other teams from Ontario and from Quebec but also from, as far away as the United Kingdom and, Slovenia, and it, gives me great pride to tell you that because of our team's dedication, and hours of practice and preparation and just the way they, do their jobs here, each and every day in our own City our.
Team Managed, to take first, place and, I. Should, tell you that itls, is a global not-for-profit, organization, and the whole purpose of the organization is to prevent death and disability from trauma through education. And emergency trauma care and this. Competition is meant to promote that. Goal and. The. Very first itls, competition. That, Toronto just won was held in 2002. Right here in. Toronto the. Last time our team, won. The competition, was 2011, and superintendent. Martin, Johnson he's like the champion. Of the Grey Cup winning. Argonauts he was on that team as well so. It, means more though I think, and it really is just to the point that I started on and I'll finish on this point it. Means more than just winning a competition it means that, we can be, assured of something we knew which is that the people who are on our streets every single day not in a competition but. Providing. The service that they're trained to do and. That they do with. With such skill and dedication is. Something, that we can see being. Recognized, elsewhere now I think. There was a, some. Thought that there would be a trophy. Here we could see but I gather the trophy like the Grey Cup that's, a tional II gone missing and, it sits somewhere but I. Also, wanted, to make mention of something. Was very important and that was that this year the, competition included, the presentation. Of the inaugural, George, Ely Addis memorial, award to recognize a, competitor. Who demonstrated, exceptional professionalism. And leadership. George. Was a deputy commander with Toronto Toronto paramedic services who, earlier this year died tragically, in, a motor vehicle accident and, he, was so highly respected, and I can tell you I know that because I went on your behalf to who is his, memorial. Service and to. See the people who were there who were citizens other first responders police officers, firefighters and, of course many. Paramedics. Was. Something that was. Was. Incredibly. Moving to see that, people would take a professional, like him and honor him in that, way and so with the blessing of his family the award was created to honor his memory and the work that he did to advance. Paramedic, care and to help the sick and the injured and. This year's recipient, is Connor McCulloch, an advanced. Care paramedic, from Niagara EMS. Who is presented with the award by George's son and brother and so I wanted, to make mention about only because George was such, a very special person in our first responder. Community. And, all. Of you are very special including, those who were not involved in the competition and so congratulations. On behalf of the, members of Toronto City Council and, the people of Prague and, thank. Thank. You and, congratulations. As. A council, we will not review and confirm the order paper there are 64, items left on the agenda. City, council has decided to commit, to consider, items os, 23.1. A PG. 24.8. On, short-term, rentals, together as the first items of business this morning they. Will be followed by item, CX 29, 18, 29. 1929. 20. On the, 2008. 18. Rate supported. Budgets for Toronto water solid, waste management, services, in the Toronto parking authority I, will, now take the release of member. Holds. Councillor. Fletcher. Yes, I do have, a page. Sorry. Wearing. The pink sheets oh I mean that y'all I went to the blue. So. I'm from East York I can give you that much. Okay. On. Page 9. Yes. On page, 9 I. Have. A release of the. Twenty. Eight point six six. Pedestrian. Cross over relocation. Carla. Avenue, and laying the Avenue. Okay. You send, that back with emotion, actually to send it back to Community Council after conversation. With miss gray okay. So on, page ninety. Twenty, eight point six six counts. Of lectures referring, to back to, community council on favor. Carrie, and. Then. I have, a motion that I would like to introduce so, speaker yes. I. Believe. That's ready on show, line. Something, we started in October and, will be hopefully, finishing, today. So. Let's leave to introduce that. Okay. And I. Would like to see if we can have that time, for. After. The. Rape, budgets. Okay. So first, let's on, favor, of, introducing. Carried. And councillor, Fletcher, is asking, that this be dealt, with after the rape budget, on favor. Kerry, I mean, speaker. I have one other that, I'd like to make time specific. And. That is, planning. A growth page six. Planning. And growth management. PG. Twenty four point six Portland's. Planning initiatives, final report and. I didn't have a chance to speak to councillor shiner this morning before it all started to, have that first thing on Friday morning. Since. He's holding it but I'm making up time Pacific, ok just once that counts to Fletcher counter, shiner. Okay. So. That's on page 6. PG.
Twenty, Four point six. To. Be dealt with tomorrow, morning, on, favor. Carried. Okay. Thank you, councillor. Fraga Dacus. Yes. Madam, Speaker on page. Three. I was, wondering if this is the appropriate time to ask for a timed item on PW. 24.5. I was thinking tomorrow at some point in, the morning, perhaps. After. Portland's. After the Portland, s'okay council Fraga darkus is asking on page three twenty, four point five. That's. The speed limit on baby you haven't you be dealt with after the Portland's, issue Friday, morning, on favor. Carried. Counter. Shiner. Madam. Speaker I would like to release on page eight of the pink sheets. North. York Community Council, item 20. 6.57. City. Of on young, steals, corridor, secondary, plan I, held, it I've talked, about it again but for. The members of council that may not watch the area's fire up as young in steals this. Is where our friends, up in Vaughan want, to substantially. Increase the density. That. Would end up using the subway line that they would like to see extended there, that doesn't have capacity now even when you're starting at Finch never. Mind as you move down the line to the other streets, so this, is to authorize our, staff to participate and, to object, to those intensification. ZUP there where they really are going well above what their official plan is suggesting. Okay. That's on page three I mean, sorry page eight and why. 2657, counts two shiners releasing. Can. We get a recorded, vote on the sorted vote recorded. Vote. Councillor. Davis please. The. Item, carries unanimously 33. In favor. Councillor. Perks, Thank. You speaker I have two items that I can release, on. Page, 4 e^x. 29.6. The new Toronto new, city of Toronto investment, policy, despite. You know as you know I'm very cautious, about public. Funds but mr. fur AG has. Can persuade, at me that that we have belts and suspenders here, so I can release that, count. Page for, the top of the page he X twenty, nine point six counts, two perks is releasing on favor. Kerry. Thank. You on page, six, p. PE. Twenty-three. Point five the, energy storage partnership, agreements, I'm satisfied and can release okay. On page six, the, twenty-three, point five counts of perks is releasing on favor, carried. Councillor. Palacio. Thank. You speaker page for. The. X 29 point, 19. 2018. With, support. Budgets solid waste management service. I would, like to reduce the tithing. Release. On. Page four. Councillor. Palacios. Releasing, the X. 29.99. I like it recorded vote on that one oh. Yeah. That's a timed item. Okay. That's. Fine. Councillor. Davis. Thank. You speaker I'm seeking, your guidance, on this I as, many. Of my colleagues have noticed, I have held one two three four.
Traffic. Signals, and I'm. Wondering if I can have. Them considered, together. No. And on, they. Have to be voted on and voted, on separately, I understand. That the joint considered, together. And voted. On hold on counter Kara I can't hear counselor Davis, which items, are they and can you tell me by twenty six point two or five what, page what page please, oh. Seven. Says counselor, do set. Yes. Ey twenty six point two five on, page, seven. I. Don't. Want to vote on them right now, I just, am asking, if we could from. A procedural, perspective, have them consider together I'm just as you've, got then you've got the four in North York, then there's NY, on page, eight and why twenty-six, point 28 32. And 33, okay. We can night that's fine. And. Fine and just to make sure that, transportation. Staffers and I know they're. Well. Aware they. Think of this I have one other to release, on. Page. On. 9mm. Thirty five point five. It's. Called the uber, data breach. The. Members motion on page 9 mm, thirty five point five, you're, releasing. Yes. Recorded. Vote I'm letting. You know that we're. Avoiding, uber. Once. All. Right. You. Want to hold it okay. Counter plots you would like to hold it. Counts. To Chrissy, thank. You, speaker on page five, item. Edie twenty, five point six potential, policies, and programs to support Toronto's, retail areas I can release that with thanks to the economic development and culture staff down, page five the bottom of the page Edie. 25.6. Councillor, Crecy is releasing on, favor. Oh Lou. Said hold. Okay. Counselor Cole would still like to hold it. Okay, just one second, sir Pilate oh so so. Counts, are cold with and. Counsel. Krusty would you still. Okay. Transfer, it to counter. Cold all. Right counter, plot your point of order thank. You madam Speaker. Cousin, of the Davis, she killed one of my items, and that's. A, white, twenty six point twenty five is. It. Has to do with traffic lights recommended. By staff and, I want to be here when that vote takes place and, I hope that's not going to be release or anything, is going to be changed, while. I'm not in the Chamber's is this. Is initial. Death. In life and I will not stand up to any member who is holding items that are recommended by series tab so I want to make sure that that, happens. Thank. You no. It's not a timed item counselor, Davis just asked there to be dealt with at the same time, all. Those in favor of adopting the, order paper recorded. Vote. Yeah. Councillor. Mehek and councillor Crawford please.
The. Motion, to adopt the order paper carries, 32. To 1, okay so, we'll now go to the timed items, which is OS. 23.1. And PG. 24.8. On short-term, rentals, and. Questions. The staff please. Put your name up request to question staff. Counselor. Palacios. Thinking. Of speaker. I'm. Not sure who, in, see the staff about they have a few questions do. We know how many basement. Apartments, or secondary, suites do we have in Syria, troller. Through. You madam chair we, are aware of approximately. Just over 1700, secondary, suites that have that have obtained building permits since 2002. My. City planning, staff may, be able to assist with additional, numbers and projections, or estimates, of how, many secondary, suites we believe exists in the city we've heard seventy, thousand, to a hundred thousand, as their estimate, so. Just to be clear. We. Have out 1700. With building permits but. The numbers can be much more within. The seventy, thousand. Or more, madam. Speaker yes from the records, that we have we absolutely know that seventeen, hundred and sixty nine I believe have been issued permits in the last fifteen, within the city's definition. Short-term rentals, are arcade are, allowed in. Different, types of housing, for example detached, houses row houses townhouses. Condominiums. Or apartments. As long. As it is a principal, residence. Whether. Owned. Or. Rented or. Leased is, that. The. Water definition, actually, male, speaker, yes it is. So. A secondary, suite always, self continuing, it and. Can. Be rented, as long as, either. The tenant. Alone. If. The unit is a long term, rental. Either, the 10k, rent or. Whoever. Is occupying, that principle visage so through you madam Speaker the initial staff recommendations. Would have permitted the use of a secondary, suite for rental as a short-term rental whether, it be by the owner of the property or the tenant occupying, the secondary, suite there, was an amendment made to the recommendations. At planning and growth management, which wholly excluded. Secondary, Suites from the permissions, so. What is before you today does not permit, the use of secondary suites as short-term, rentals so for clarification, purposes we, have a. Supplementary. Report that's. Not at SPG, 24.8. 8a. And. That clarifies, the. Zoning aspect, is. That what, it means in terms of clarifying, what. Constitutes, the, secondary, suite as, if. He's rented, in relation, to a principal residence as well. So. Through. You madam chair the supplementary. Port does not speak, to clarifying. Principle. Versus, a, renter. Short-term. Renting out there use. It just clarifies. What. Are secondary, Suites across the city. Okay. That's. Fine. How. Many short-term rentals, do we have in Syria Turner through. The. Multiple. Disruptive. Technologies, that we have including, Airbnb, so through you madam Speaker the data we've relied upon is the data we were able to obtain throughout, 2016. We, have at that point approximately. Ten thousand eight hundred properties with fifteen thousand nine hundred and sixty-eight listings, that, we had record. Of being used in the city. Of. Those. They are not to differentiate. It sorry between secondary suite of primary residents, though, we do have from it some data that Airbnb. Conducted, a survey of their hosts and reported. That approximately 77%, of, those listings, were, being done by people use a lot utilizing, their primary residence. Okay. Pathetically speaking at the moment in the regulations, are pass can, that be enforced. Through, you madam Speaker that is our intention that we develop a regulation, that is easily complied, with but also provides. Us the necessary tools, to aid in enforcement, as that, enforcement, is necessary, how many complaints that we have and. How many active, investigations. I didn't. Please right now through, you madam Speaker, we've we've estimated approximately. 370. Service, request complaints, this, year that has increased over the prior two years and. Those are those complaints. Relate, to everything from improper, use noise, waste. Etc. There. Are more. Than one. Platform. In place, how. Many short-term. Platforms. That we have apart, from ABM, being do you know so. Through you madam Speaker we were able to identify approximately. 16. 16. 16 that. We're aware of Airbnb being, the largest there, are others such as home. Away and VRBO run by Expedia.
Sonder. Is a small provider, and a number of others we, have the numbers that was your last question counter Palacio just. Through you madam speaker the bulk of the data that we have received is from the largest platform not the sole platform, which is Airbnb and that has been the source of the the primary source of data though, we did receive some from Expedia, as well. Thank. You councillor, ma'am lady questions. So. When I was uh, when. I was growing. Up in my house my my parents would often, invite. Friends. Of theirs or friends, of friends of theirs from Italy and they would stay in, the house for. A. Week two weeks, and. At, the end of this day, they. Would give my parents, you. Know a few hundred dollars further, for. The accommodation. Just. To kind. Of help with some of the costs, my. Parents break the law. Through. You madam. If, I can ask the members of the public please refrain, from applauding. I'd like to keep doing that but please. If, you. Can wave but, you can't apply. Through. Through you madam Speaker sir I'm sure you come from a very law-abiding family. You. Know so the the complexity, with this is there are different ways that people are utilizing their property, for short-term rental purposes and there's, a mishmash of permissions, and allowances, around the city the goal here, is to standardize, it explain, it keep it simple to comply with allow people to participate so, that they may not run in or in foul of the law let me give you another example. Councillor, cressie or councillor, Layton have. People. In their and. Their. Constituencies. That might not be well-to-do, and they. They, they, have a mattress, and, they, want to use. Somebody's, house for the night and, at, the end of the day they give them five ten bucks because. They had nowhere to go the. Person that owned that house that they break the law. Through. You madam Speaker, I would say no you. Know this is less about the exchange of some compensation for, an occasional. Use in your example, versus, people who are advertising, and offering their property, to the, masses, on a short-term, basis. So. What if what, if someone, with a mattress decided. That they're. Not, going to sleep on the streets and instead asked people, to use their living rooms with their mattress, Sri. Madhavi would, that be illegal, would that be something that's enforceable, through, you madam Speaker we have. Explicit. A of Toronto gave homes to people who don't have them we, have excluded, any exchange of sleeping accommodation, where there's no compensation, such, as couchsurfing. Is not captured within this definition you said it's a wonderful thing, if. People were to give their homes over to people that don't have them but. If they paid them five bucks would, would. That be illegal for. You. Madam Speaker we're gonna have to assess every single situation councillor, ma'am aleady after we have a regulatory regime that dictates. Is dictated, by counsel what is or is not permitted, do. We feel comfortable as a city telling, homeowners, what to do with their house. So. Through you madam Speaker. I would suggest sir that that's an answer for yourselves to answer our question for yourselves to answer we're. Making a recommendation on, how to regulate a business activity fourth please, we. Are making, arrests on people I know that some people don't want to hear this but I really don't care I'm gonna ask the questions anyway, the. The the other question, I have is enforcement. What. Does it take because, that in my area if I have a rooming house that that, the. Neighbors. Are complaining about, they. Say, to me this. Has been happening and it's been happening for quite some time so I call. Your department, and they come out and I typically go meet them there and shake hands and say do you want a coffee and. And. What's going on and they. Say to me it's. Very difficult to enforce this measure because, it's. So transient. That. The, courts, will just throw it out you. Cannot enforce. Something. That lasts, for 24 hours, unless you've, got solid proof on who, it is and what, they've paid and what they've done it's, almost impossible to enforce. It. Would that be the case in. A in a similar, situation where you get one, person for the night. See. You later, how, do you enforce that. So. Through you madam Speaker the creation of the regulatory regime is to set it a scheme, of permissions. And at. The same time allow for enforcement, tools where necessary we, don't regulate, just, to stop things enforcement. Is not easy thank you very much for articulating, how challenging it can be but, it certainly depends on the circumstances, that were presented with the evidence that we can procure found, it in the law that we are provided, with in the manner in which it's constructed, to ensure that it is enforceable.
And Then how it proceeds through the courts it you know it by no way shape or form is this a simple easy exercise, and we're certainly not looking to regulate. People who are offering a spare couch or mattress on a floor but if they do are, we going to bring in the case, okay that was your last question, and please. Stay on topic counselor, my lady counts, her Holland. Thank. You Madame speaker through, you to our director, so. Teresa. We had the great opportunity of going down to New York for the sharing economy, back. In May, and you. Were probably, the best speaker, there I'm gonna say and. The. I, would, say one of the keynotes, that we took away from that was. Our ability as the City of Toronto, to. Work with, new and advancing, technology, would you agree with that through. You madam Speaker, yes I think the first part I'm not sure about but, the latter part about us at the City of Toronto being a leader and embracing, technology and, and building, capacity yes, I think we are being recognized, in that regard okay, and I would say that's you because, as we, I know you're going. To be that way and not to admit how amazing. You are and the, work that you did and the accolades that we received, and that I heard from. All the deputy, mayor's globally. That, were there at that conference on the, work that you did on behalf of the city of Toronto in those. Days it was for uber, and for, the sharing economy and in, that regard and now we're looking at Airbnb and we're. Looking at that. Sharing economy, so would. You say again, that, the City of Toronto wants, to work with that, new technology, and those people, who are affected and. Investing. With that new technology. So. Through you madam Speaker I would say councilor, that we presented, a report was with a series of recommendations, and. A regulation, to allow for the operating. Of this type of service. It was uber at the time it was City Council ultimately, that made the decision and took, the steps to enable what we have enabled today so, I appreciate, the recognition.
But At the end of the day came down to the actions of this council to, make the law that we are we, have in place that is operating, I would say quite well in the city currently right, and in, terms of that I would say probably the second point that we took away from that. From. That conference, was the. Fact that it's. About an iteration. So we're coming forward with the regulation, we're looking at it we're looking at the policy, and we. Have to be I. Would say proactive. In the sense that we are in a new economy yes, we're in the fourth Industrial, Revolution and, that we have to look at a different, way of working with the public and educating, the public on, the, fact that these, new policies they're going to come forward as, policymakers, we. Have to also, educate the public that, they're going to be iterative, is that correct through. You madam Speaker I think that's perfectly, stated, we know that we're we're making our best efforts coming out of the gate based on the information that we have the, experience luckily, that we have had to, inform that but, at the end of the day things are going to keep changing technology, is going to continue to evolve we, don't know where we're going to be three five years from now so absolutely. Recognizing. That this is always going to be a needs to be a work in progress to reflect the realities, of the day is. Is a critically, important, thing, to keep in mind right. So as we debate. Today the, politicians, that are here today the. Technology, that's here today may not be here in a few years from now. Through. You madam Speaker certainly, there's a lot of discussion, about the utilization of blockchain, and the distributed, ledger actually. Disaggregating. The aggregators, so we, don't know where we're going to be but. Absolutely, I think starting, at a place that's reasonable, that allows people to participate in any, way they so choose at the same time being mindful that our communities, need, to be protected. As well and, that, we have a balanced regulation, that's not overly burdensome is nimble to respond to the technology, we have and knowing, that we have to continue to review. It as as things, change exactly, and so, I was reviewing this and we're going back to the proposed regulations, for short-term rentals for the consultation, the report and in. That the original, had the. It's the nightcap so it's a hundred and eighty days and. Given. The fact that we have an amazing. Tech. Sector, that's absolutely. Booming and punching above its weight in the City of Toronto many. Of these people that work in the tech sector are, international. We're working globally they, could be working in water they, may not be, here every night obviously, instead of Toronto so having that cap of, 180. Days what. Do you what's, your response to that and how can how, can we actually enforce, that how. Would that even be enforceable, right so, through your madam Speaker when we came with the framework in June we had not contemplated. A nightcap what. We'd had nightcap. Yeah. I know you would I please. Have. A nightcap, a. Cap. On the number of nights for entire unit rental if. We're, here long enough we may all need a nightcap. But. You. Know upon, review and really the the principle, the. Principle to this regulation is around the use of principle residents and, recognizing. That it's not unreasonable to expect that people occupy, their principal residence for. At least half of the year so. Again it we're trying to balance and I mean it's, there's. Some jurisdictions, that have said 90 days there some jurisdictions, that said 230, there are some that have said none so, again that's a point for discussion, we, felt that on the entire unit rental, 180. Days in a year which is every, long weekend, Plus every weekend plus was, a reasonable, balance offset. Against, the. Impact, the potential impact of communities, with, ever exchanging. Tenants. Or occupants, or guests. Now, the last, question. Thank. You it took some of that up on the nightcap. Councillor. Crawford. Thank. You madam Speaker I have some questions to the director of MLS Tracey cook, Tracey.
Any Report, you. Restrict the use of Home Sharing to, principal, residences. So can you describe. Or what, is a principal. Residence why. Have you put it into the report and specifically. On how you. Tried to balance it out on the bigger issue of housing. And the ability, to include, housing, across the city right so. Through you madam Speaker great, question council Crawford thank you so certainly you, know we know we have a number, of individuals. Who own properties, for investment. Purposes, where they're using this as a commercial rental, for. A short term basis. And those, those, interests. In contrast, with our communities, and our neighborhoods where we don't want to have a commercialization, of residential, properties, also, on the other hand was what we heard through the consultations. And the people who obviously are here on mass as well that, they want to be able to share their homes with with people who are visiting the city so. Giving giving, regard, to the true essence of home sharing, allowing. Flexibility. Of what. Is used within that principal, residence of the owner and. Trying, to mitigate against, the commercialization. Of our of our what, could be available rental stock for long term rentals as well as mitigating, the community, impact, of people, continuously, changing, over changing over with no homeowner, intervention. Or oversight. So, that that was that balance, of where. We landed on principal residence so in your initial, report. You, did support secondary, suites that correct so. Through you madam, Speaker is our initial recommendation. Wasn't was a primary, residence or principal residence inclusive. Of a secondary, suite okay, and that was changed a PGM do, you have any do. You have any statistics reports. That would suggest there. Would be a substantial conversion. From long-term rental. To short-term rental of secondary, Suites if, we, allowed secondary. Home sharing, Suites a concern of course is is that we, allow home, share or we allow the the home.
Sharing Of secondary, Suites but all these permanent long-term. Rentals are going to jump on that you have any statistics or reports that would suggest that would happen so. Through you madam Speaker and that's where we're a bit challenged with data as. I mentioned we don't know how many people, are occupying, secondary, Suites we have some sense from the Census data that. Our City Planning folks have pulled but. To identify who is going to make a an individual, choice of if. They offer their secondary suite for long term versus, short term that's it's, very other, we, don't have you, have no idea okay fine do you have any stats that would or some reports, that would suggest people presently. Renting, their, basement, apartments, as Home, Sharing would convert back to long term rental if we, put in that van you have any stats that would show that that would happen so three madam Speaker again on, the issue of statistics, and how people are utilizing the secondary, Suites and what choices they make make we. Don't have specific. Data in that regard we do know there are homeowners, who were who do use the secondary suite on a short-term rental basis, because that's their choice. Some that use it as a long-term rental basis because that's their choice but. We do not keep, records of, that type of rental accommodation, as. Yet in other words again we we have no idea. We. Don't have the data as you know. Question if if an amendment is moved when. We get into the speaking that and, just let me read it and and if you can comment, on that permits. A secondary, suite to be used as a short-term rental if it is exclusively. And separately, occupied. As a principal. Residence do, you know what that means, so. Through you madam Speaker you know throughout, this, program. Or this report, we've looked at trying to balance the rights of owners of property with tenants of, properties, to make sure that everybody, can participate in home. Sharing, or in the short-term rental. Sphere. The. What. You're talking about there would then allow someone. In a secondary suite who is a long-term tenant, to participate, in short-term renting, that principal residence of theirs, which is the secondary, suite of, the. Homeowner. That's a lot that's a lot of words so let so. If amendment, is made so what you're saying is, a. Tenant. Of a. Who, has a basement apartment a, homeowner rents it out to a tenant that tenant. Can, actually put it on to Airbnb, and that. Tenant, or, the homeowner, will have no control, over, who's coming into their house because the tenant is renting, it out to Airbnb, is that what an amendment, could potentially, look is that what it would mean if, and if this amendment comes forward so. Through you madam Speaker based on what you've read to me councillor Crawford, yes. That sounds like that would give the opportunity. For the tenant in the secondary, suite which, is their principal residents to offer, part. Of their their. Principal residents for short term rental basis again. Well we'll discuss that more if that, amendment happens okay that was your last question, and if I can remind the members of the public. Please no. Disruption. Councillor. Campbell, I thank. You madam Speaker through you too mr. cook when. Does a when. Does a basement. Room become. A, sec, let. Me rephrase, this does, a basement, room become, a secondary, suite when kitchen, facilities, are added. To. You madam Speaker, no, not, necessarily, there is a definition. For what a secondary suite is like so maybe why don't you just tell me what that is because I was looking to I don't see it in the report so. In the zone in the planning and growth management, report you want to I should. Have seen that. I'm. On the committee. For. You madam Speaker the. Definition, of secondary, suite. Includes. Both, food, preparation, and sanitary, so you're gonna have a bathroom. And food, prep so. Do. We go further to define what food prep is I mean food prep could be a microwave, oven right I. Know. We do not define and do not define okay. All. Right so, okay. And we, we have a Miss, cook we have we have an idea of the number of secondary, suites in Toronto, I think you've said overall. It's the numbers around 7,000. So. Through you madam Speaker we know since 2002.
1,700. And change. 1789. I believe have obtained a building permit for the construction of a secondary suite there. Is a, an. Inventory, of secondary. Suites that would have been deemed lawful, if they, were if they met the provincial, fire, code and building code of the time when they were constructed, pre amalgamation. So. That, inclusive. Number, the estimates, coming out of City Planning was at maybe seventy thousand, to a hundred thousand. Secondary. Suites either either pre amalgamation. Regime or post so, so prior to you. Know the the. Innovation, of this technology where it made it easy for people to post their you. Know their secondary, Suites, up before for. Short term rental, did. The city receive. Complaints, from neighborhoods, that. Somebody. Had a basement, apartment and, there was a constant, flow of people going in and out was did that happen before or before. The technology, so. Three a madam Speaker I think I parse that into two two, different responses, the, the notion of people offering a part, of their premise for short-term rental is not, new the, scale, and the, the. The. Obvious. Nests of it occurring is consistently. Greater because of the technology, enabling. It so easily right it used to be a newspaper ad or not now. As far as us receiving complaints I could not tell you a specific number of complaints that we've received, specifically. Related, to the use of a secondary suite we, do get complaints about how properties, are used writ large, generally. Those are complaints about the, belief of illegal rooming houses which is not what we're talking about here, today so I can't parse it into that specific. Complaints. On secondary suite what's sorry what's the definition of, an illegal rooming, us. Sure. Do, you have the definition handy. Threw, the chair at the councillor Campbell and the illegal rooming, house would be either one that is a rooming house that's not licensed. Under the City of Toronto misspell. Code or the, zoning does not permit a rooming house occupancy, use at that property no so, I so. If somebody has a house and, they. Have five. Or six bedrooms, and they, have five or six different occupants. Staying. In that house whether. They're paying or they're not pay does that constitute a ruling us an illegal rooming house, so. Do you madam Speaker I'll go back to a comment I made previously every, situation, unto itself is different depending on the circumstances. There's. Nothing that precludes someone, from having a couple of borders or lodgers this. Short-term rental proposal.
Would, Allow up to three bedrooms to be used for short term rental basis at four, and greater is where you start getting into discussions, around rooming, house numbers, so, again, I can't give a blanket, if you do X it equals Y because, there are a lot of contributing factors so. The last question has to do with people, that are presently, renting, secondary, Suites as their principal residence, what. Would come what. Complaints, come to you if they're being evicted for purposes, of somebody, establishing. A business through. You madam Speaker the issue of landlord and tenant relationships, is specifically, under the Residential. Tenancies Act, and as a matter of the landlord and tenant board in. September, the province, did enact some enhancements. To insure against. You have that paper to. To. Add some of the strength to the protections, for tenants from eviction and, I can find it in. A moment, but. The complaints, would not come to us that would be a landlord and tenant dispute, issue you. Just put, that you. Just mentioned something that's important, about the province. It's. The notice. It. Was what they changed. Right. Oh right they changed sorry, so I just, want to that was Michael a I'm sorry. So. There have been a legislative changes made to the Residential, Tenancies Act. To, avoid. Tenants, being evicted due to abuse the landlord so what. They've they've, tightened up is that it must be for the landlord's, own use. So. They're still if someone, is unlawfully. If. Someone is a tenant in a secondary suite and they are being evicted for. Purposes, other than what is permitted, in the Residential, Tenancies Act, that, is a landlord, and tenant board issue and some. Amendments, have been made to the RTA to, strengthen that and that would be in their purview thank. Thank you, councillor. Chris ante. Thank. You madam Speaker, mr. cook you're. Quite, familiar with, each. Obachan north's and. Humber. College and some of the. Issues. We have surrounding. Illegal rooming houses correct. Through. You madam speaker yes sir I am yes, and. So. The. The, on the enforcement side what is the difficulty you're having, in terms of providing. Effective, enforcement. When, comes to. You. Know ensuring, that we uphold the bylaw that we currently have the, clearly states rooming, houses are not allowed in that in the area that I just mentioned so, 3 de Madame speaker is a I mentioned, previously it's, not that clear-cut unfortunately. Councillor croissant, II certainly. Every investigation, complaint, we received we have to determine how the property, is being used what, the permissions, are for that property, so and we do get a number of calls where people believe it's an illegal rooming, house but when we actually investigate, we, cannot prove that out based on the way uses, are defined, so an example would be if someone's operating as a single housekeeping, unit five, people who are friends, the five of us god.
Help Us the, five of us that. All can collectively, rent a property and pay a single rent that would not be a rooming house the way things are defined currently, so, you, know if we have so many different, types of scenarios I recognize, your frustration, and that is why we need to address just. One second, and budget I'm on hold, please. If I can ask members of counsel please try to keep it down it's getting very noisy. Thank. You, so. I just say that you know a minute, madam Speaker I recognize the frustration, and some, things that seem to be clearly obviously illegal or not necessarily, so when it comes down to investigating. And looking at the underlying the, foundational, law that we're trying to apply, and. We. Need to have that bigger conversation, about what we're doing with housing, writ, large, this report, is talking about short-term rental purposes for, people who are traveling in, and out of the city and people who want to offer their homes to, people who are doing that is part of the problem you. Having the right of entry to a property in order to gain. A obtained. Evidence so to you madam Speaker there are a number of issues in regards as councilor croissant II certainly, a right of entry could be gained by obtaining a warrant through the courts, but. We're talking about dwelling. Units we're talking about places. Where people reside. Where they live you. Know, there's the the bigger issues, or grow up bigger questions, as well is when, we start getting into heavy enforcement, and start displacing, people who are currently residing there where, are they going to go so. We, as a city have. A, bigger, conversation that, when to have about how people are finding housing in the city and how we're responding, if, we started taking, a strong, enforcement, efforts and D housing people who are living in these properties your, shelter conversation, yesterday would have still been going on and we'd need a lot more so we've really got a complex, issue I wish it was just a simple enforcement. And answer, for you but. Unfortunately it's, a little bit more than that I know I understand, that so given, the challenges, you already have with the existing, a situation. That we have up in Etobicoke north and other parts of the city so. If this passes today short-term, rentals. Will. They're not present, similar, challenges, for you in terms of enforcement. Through, you madam Speaker I don't believe so we, have what we've presented to you is a regulatory, framework a, standalone by law governing short term rental uses, and within. That is not just simply how, the property, is being used there is a number of requirements for people who are operators, sort, of the hosts, that they have to have a registration with the city they have to if they cannot advertise without, it so there are a number of enforcement. Tools to, address the issue of short-term rental if it is necessary, but, I would just like to go back to the initial point, is we're, finding a way to clarify the law to allow for this activity to occur in a regulated, moderated.
Way So we're mitigating, community nuisance, but, at the same time allowing, people to participate, we. Do have embedded, in this enforcement. Tools to, address the, short term rental, issue, this, is not a rooming. House discussion, or issue it's a short term rental but a short term rental property a licensed, property. Property. Owner could still abuse that and and and rent out to large. Numbers, of people at any given time is that correct you. Hadn't rolled that sure you madam Speaker we have laws to tell people they can and cannot or cannot do a lot of things and unfortunately, some people will I believe, a small percentage of people are those that will be non-compliant and, it's, for those people that these let these, regulations. Are in place the. Majority. Of people and I'm sure our audience here, today are law-abiding, citizens who want to have a clear set of rules that, they can follow so that they can participate in, this activity that's. What we premise this on build, it around something that can be complied with. Lawfully, regulated. Appropriately, but, have tools to address the small percentage of question, does regulation, include the total number of people allowed in a home through. You Madison grant know, it the this short-term rental by law does not specifically, speak to occupancy, if occupancy. Has become an issue then we would be having other discussions, including, potentially, with our good friends in fire but we do not limit the number of people that can occupy a premises, under short-term rental like, we don't limit the number of people who can occupy a premises. You. Generally. Count. Their deber, maker, thank. You. Thinking, about him speaker ii through you to our staff, and Tracy, you and I both, grew up in Scarborough, so I'll try to sort. Of put this in language that the local folks and Scarborough could understand. Because. When. You talk in Scarborough you talk about basement, apartments, you don't really talk about secondary, suites if I ask my neighbor do you have a secondary, suite they probably say no I own, a house and then. If I said do you have a basement apartment they say oh yeah we have a couple students down there so. I just, want to start off with. Part, of your report says that you, have, to be an owner, occupier. To, participate, in I'll call it air B&B or rental correct. Through, you madam Speaker. Are. You talking, sorry. Seeing a single-family home right now so we're. Seeing hard to live in this house yeah, print your principal, residence that. You live in you necessarily necessarily, have to own it you could be a tenant, and that is your principal, residence and you can participate. Right. And if, I owned five, houses. You. Can only have one principal, residence, that goes on to a short term rental market. That is correct I could rent out the other four, for. Long term rentals. But. I can't have. Airbnb. Say as an example in, all of them for, you madam Speaker that's exactly, correct that's why we have said that, the the short term rental applies, to principal. Or permissions, or principal, residents, only a person, can only have one principal residence, and they, can be the owner or occupier, being tenant, of that, principal residence, but it's only that one that they the and three madam chair, you say that's I'm gonna call it sort of one of the benefits, of your proposed regulations, is that we're, trying to stop the absentee, landlord, from.
Buying, Up five houses or ten houses and just running hotels. Or, businesses, with, no. Ownership no presence, no control, over who's coming in and out and the. Impact, on their neighbors, absolutely. Through you madam Speaker absolutely. We, do know that there are people who have a property, in the city that, they want to rent out an ongoing basis, on a short-term rental we've, we've said no to that we've tied it really to the principle residents to ensure that our residential, neighborhoods, stay, residential. And don't. Become industrial, or commercialized. Rentals. And, three madam chair and I just wanted to understand, so again if I'm living in Scarborough, I have a house and I, have I'll call it a basement, apartment I won't call it a secondary, suite because. I, don't fit that a secondary, suite if I'm correct is something in the act you actually register, with the city you, go through the fire code in the building code yeah, no so through you madam Speaker, the the, supplemental, report that planning wrote does speak around what that is a basement apartment is a secondary. Suite, I'll let Michael step in, through. You madam Speaker a. Secondary. Suite is a defined, term in the zoning bylaw, a basement. Apartment is, not they, can be the same thing, we. Call it a secondary suite today the. Common. Language, is a basement, apartment but if it has a separate, door if, it has sanitary. Facilities if, it can be food preparation. It's, in today's language a secondary suite but years ago it's a it's a basement apartment they're the same thing. So. If I if. I live in Scarborough and want. To rent out my, basement. Haven't. Had tenants in it before I just want to rent out my tape my. Basement to short-term, rentals. Is. That allowed under this under, our, proposed regulations. In. Our report. We. Recommend, that you could short-term. Rent up to three rooms, in your house or a secondary, suite at PG. The. Recommended. Permission, for secondary Suites were removed, or. Not. Allowed. Okay. And then. Recommendation. Number six of the staff report, talks. About no, operator shall be permitted to operate an entire unit. Rental for more than a hundred and eighty nights per calendar year so. Under, this legislation if, again if I'm in Scarborough, I own, my house or I'm paying the mortgage on my house. You. Would this the the city would allow me to rent out my entire house for, a short term rental that would be okay up, to 180, days sure. You madam Speaker yes over, a total, of 180, days over.
The Entirety of the year so in theory if I wanted to make a little bit of extra money for whatever reasons, I could. Go and ask my brother to crash, at his place for a, week. While, somebody comes and rents my home and then go back to my home that is correct but the the goal of your report is that it is an owner-occupied. Home. Or dwelling, so, 3a madam Speaker I just want to bring clarity on the occupied, so we're not requiring, that the owner is present, which, is the entire unit rental scenario, but, simply that it's the principal. Residence, so. Yes your example of I leave for a week and I put on short-term rental this, would permit you to do that on an entire unit, for up to 180, days throughout the year you go to your cottage every weekend, you want to put it on short-term rental you can do that up to a 180, days those. Snowbirds, who leave and go to wonderful, Florida, for a few months if they want to do that and offer their home on a short-term, rental basis, during that period of time they're, permitted to do so up to 180, days in a year it's not a hundred and eighty days consecutively. Nor, is it twenty-eight days consecutively, it's short term rental, periods for that amount, of time Thank You. Councillor. Krusty, well. Thank you speaker I'm gonna direct my questions to the chief planner and I want to bring this back to a different part of the conversation, which is in. Your estimation, is there a lack of accessible, and affordable rental, housing in the City of Toronto right now yes all. Right what, is a healthy, vacancy. Rate a rental, vacancy rate in the city our official plan refers to 3% is commonly. Accepted. Healthy, vacancy rate in our environment, ok so a 3%. Is a healthy, 3%, in above is a healthy, vacancy rate what is the city of Toronto's vacancy, rate for rental housing adds up today, the most recent, CMHC, number is 1%, 1%. When. You have a low vacancy, rate like 1%, does, that mean it is harder for people, to find affordable rental, housing yes. Ok, how. Many units, would. The City of Toronto need new rental, housing units to get from 1 to 3%, what's. That number so, that it's, a crude estimate but roughly, 16,000. Units so, the City of Toronto needs.
16,000. New rental, units just, to get to a level where we are generally. Affordable, yes. Ok. In, my experience, in, the neighborhood called Kensington, Market last. Year in the spring we had 112. Listings. For air B&B, units. And, 12. Listings, for rental units have, you heard, of any situations. In the city of Toronto where long term rental units have been converted. Into short, term listings. You've. Certainly. Been anecdotal. Evidence of. That conversation, certainly, in our consultations. Those. Issues yes ok I want, to come to secondary, Suites which is being talked about my, understanding, is we were estimated, that there are about, 70,000. There about secondary, Suites in the City of Toronto is that right that's our rough, estimate yes all right are those secondary, Suites an important. Part of the. Rental housing, market, in the City of Toronto yes. Just, to contextualize, it these as mr., Mitzi Adams Cooke have indicated, these, manifests, themselves in many many different ways across. The city and different house ground, related housing forms basement. Apartments, attic. Apartments, second, floor conversions, they. Manifest, themselves in many many ways but. They do contribute, substantially to, our. Our. The. Supply of housing. So the goal of our. Official plan to provide a broad, spectrum. Of, housing types and tenures. Across the city so on the, numbers, in your, estimation secondary, suites are an, important, source of, rental. Housing do. They also serve, the added, benefit of providing rental, housing, more, affordable rental. Options in established. Neighborhoods, that are expensive, to buy in do, they in a sense do, they also have an added value of, helping, to provide mixed, income housing. Neighborhoods. Yes. They do I would I would say the rent of the of secondary. Suites is highly variable depending on the location, and and the amenities of that neighborhood and they they themselves can, sometimes. Be. Unaffordable, so, in a neighborhood such as the annex, where property values range. From 1.5, to 2 million dollars for a household, those, secondary, Suites those rental, units allow, people of different income levels to live in that neighborhood is, that accurate that's. A that's accurate although I would suggest that the annex probably. A going rate for a secondary suite would probably be about $2,500. So that's. Right and. If, we had more rental, housing, secondary, Suites would we expect the vacancy, rate to increase. So that those prices would go down that. Might be as an effective supplying to me all right and just, one final question I recognize I have time but one final question if we, fail to regulate, Home Sharing do we risk making the city more unaffordable, I think the whole effort, here is to establish a, platform. Of. Regulation. In a, currently unregulated, environment. So, that we can balance off the various objectives that were challenged with in this exercise, one. Of those objectives is affordability. Also. Providing. A platform to, support. A new a new, business type in the city and and there's certainly a market for that so we're trying to strike that balance and, in striking that balance if, we fail to establish regulations, do. We risk making it less affordable, we are we're, challenged, every day in this city around affordability, yes thank, you very much. Thank, You. Counselor. McMahon thank, you very much good morning madam Speaker. So. I just want to go back to this secondary. Suite definition, so you need, food. Prep. Ability. And, kind. Of extensive, food prep not just your toaster, oven. And, microwave and, you need sanitary. Ability. So you need essentially. Kind of a full kitchen and, a. Full bathroom, and, now. I just heard something, separated, door, so. Is that the three things you need to have, be. Defined as a secondary, suite through. You madam chair just so we're all on the safe side it is a defined term in the zoning bylaw, and I can provide that exact, definition. It's, a self-contained. Living. Accommodation. For, an additional, person or persons, living together as, a. Separate. Single, housekeeping. Unit in which both food, preparation. And sanitary. Facilities are, provided for the exclusive, use of the, occupants, of the suite located, and subordinate. To the dwelling unit. So. When you're saying the last located. In in subordinate, of the dwelling unit. Means. Door in. Laymen's, speech that. Last phraseology. Relates. To. Secondary. Suite husband's is something that has been added to an already existing dwelling.
Unit So it's subordinate, to the original, house so. That's, okay. Because you said door, at one point it's do you need a door or no door well. It's self-contained so. It would yes, that would yes, okay. So three, things alright. Just. With regards, to enforcement. What. Does that look like as far as, take. Me through the, the, face so, is it. You're. Not going out and just kind of happened to be doing, a walk in the neighborhood and, wow this looks like maybe an illegal secondary, suite a peeping. Tom in the windows or whatever. You are it is complaint, driven. Through. You madam Speaker, yes, I think there's enforcement, efforts that would be required, or appropriate, to expect, that everyone is registered. And. Then from there where it's about the, use it, would they would generally be complaint, based we, will also be requiring. An exchange of data so, that will help inform if there's it's necessary, for us undertake any level of proactive, but. We are not endeavoring. To start looking in people's homes, to see if their secondary, suite is a self-contained. Unit. It. Will be primarily complaint, based with some level of audit on some requirements. Within, the regulation. And. When, you register, you need to show ID. Through. You madam Speaker in, recommendation. Number three we, have outlined those items that will be required for the registration purpose, that, does include identification, form. Of identification, that we will be defining. Because. I think if I think, of a. Renter. In a basement, apartment their, ID might, not be that address. I think that's pretty common. So. Through you madam Speaker and that's where we were less prescriptive and, left it more open for us to to, nimbly, I recognize. That people have different forms of identification or, or manners by which they, may prove that that is their principal residence there, is a provision in the proposed regulation, as well that, where we believe someone is not, using, a principal, residence that they are it's a reverse onus they are required to provide us proof that it is so, on both sides because, we know the principal residence issue is important, that. There's a reasonable, amount of information provided in the initial stages registration. That's flexible to recognize. That not everyone has a driver's, license and, we need various forms to support. Those just, to my questions quickly, what. Do you think of the motion that came down at plenty of growth. Through, you madam Speaker I am going to respectfully, decline on, OP opining, I think, we we, put forward a set of recommendations that. Would allow people to participate in, a broader sprouter, broader way.
Inclusive. Of their secondary suite we know we heard and I see a deputy here who spoke about him maintaining, his home when, he had lost his job and, by using the secondary suite as a short-term rental that afforded, his ability, to live we, also heard from deputies. Who said they can't find a place to live so it's, really a very difficult. Last, question which, file is, more exciting, to you uber or Airbnb. Through. You madam Speaker backyard. Hens I. Am. So surprised, you, said that. Counts. To wong-tam, thank, you very much madam Speaker and through you miss. Cook I have several questions I'd like to ask you, can just try to answer them as briefly as possible just because I want to make sure I get them in the. City of Chicago, has created a list of properties, that are off-limits to Airbnb another, type of home sharing applications, and platforms and they've, done that largely to assist them with centralizing. Data and to, allow, for a more efficient and better enforcement, are you aware of that service, through. Your madam Speaker it sounds like it's a prohibited, buildings list in Chicago, does also permit commercial, short-term. Rentals we did consider it we chose that that we decided that that was not a role for the city to take that. Condominium. Boards have the responsibility. And the ability to regulate, within, their their condominium. Corporation and, that that, responsibility, lies there and were you concerned about setting a precedent about, having the city's city. Of dealing with condominium, board bylaws through. You madam Speaker I think that's a fair statement we need to stay in our lane as it were allow, the condo boards to take the actions that's appropriate, for their properties. Mindful. That the underlying are, the foundational, zoning permissions, and other city and provincial statutes, must be complied, with if. That's the case are, you aware that that. The city already screens, for condominium. Units, status since, property standards refused, to inspect owner occupied, condo. Units, sorry. Could you repeat it are you aware that property. Standards refuses, to inspect owner. Occupied, condo units as opposed to tenant occupied. Through. You madam Speaker I don't believe, so we. Deal with private, property standards, around the maintenance of private property. So I'd have to speak. The offline if you have some specific was, MLS, aware the city already assigns, our, own regulations, with condominium, aligns. Our own regulations, with condominium, board bylaws on parking under, the section of the city, code on parking, on private, municipal, property through our definition, of property. Owner to include, Parker's designated, by condo, boards through. You madam Speaker that parking, is not under my purview I would not be able to respond well I'm, asking these questions largely, because you're saying that you don't want to interfere with condominium, regulation fees and bylaws and it clearly is, that perhaps the city's already, extended. Themselves to make sure that they can do some of this enforcement, so, here's another question was MLS aware that the city already recognizes, each condo boards internal, definitions, of common, spaces for, the purposes, of property, ownership under the city under, the city code for fire safety. So. Through you madam Speaker again I think that's that's referencing, different statutes, that govern its specific, type of use or conditions, on the property, whether.
It Be fire code or zoning. What. We're talking about the short-term rental and just for clarity this, the provisions, in this regulatory bylaw, that's proposed would apply to condominiums. It. Does apply to condominiums, the zoning applies the, short term rental requirements. Apply so. It is applicable, yes. But I just want to understand why you did not, propose. The, the creation of the prohibited, buildings lists and. In your reply your answer, was that you didn't necessarily want, to interfere, that and. And even though the city of Chicago has demonstrated that. It is a very effective, tool of enforcement, so therefore it's it's a it probably, reduces, labor. Costs, and other expenses so. That's what I'm trying to get to is like I'm trying to establish, that, that, we already do have interface. With with. Private economy. Name ownership, so. Then here's another question was MLS aware that the city already recognizes. And enforces. Internal. Condo corporation, votes, when it comes to waste, collection. Under, chapter 84 for section 39 of the city code. So. Through you madam Speaker that's not something that I've been engaged in enforcing I guess recognizing, a condominiums, choice. Within, a waste, collection, regime that's. Passed, me okay, so so, but. We do respect, condominium. Boards. When they make their decisions, around their own governance, so, then with that in mind knowing that those precedents exists. What, MLS, consider perhaps. Today or in the future if, deemed necessary the, creation, of a prohibited, list. For. Buildings, as. A tool. Of better enforcement. So. Three madam Speaker I think absolutely councillor, Wong time as we get experienced, with this regulation regulatory, regime and we believed that, by requiring it to