LEARN HOW TO TRAVEL THE WORLD WITH TRAVEL WRITER ROLF POTTS ✈
Hey, naturals Gabby Wallace here, and I am super, excited to, bring you a very, special conversation. With. One of my favorite, travel, writers, in English, Ralph. Potts, Ralph, wrote a book that's been very influential, in my life called, vagabonding. And he's, just published a new book called, souvenir. So, join, us as we talk about our philosophy on, travel, language. Learning and where. You can really see the, real America. And much. More you're gonna love our conversation. So, if you are an english learner and you would like to learn more english, for, your travels, or your other english. Related, goals in life make, sure that you come visit gonaturalenglish.com. Where. You can learn more with, the go natural English. Method the, link is in the description, gonaturalenglish.com. I'll, see you there now enjoy. The, conversation, with, travel, author Ralph, Potts. Hey. Ralph, it's so good to have you here to have a conversation with. You I'm. A huge fan of your, work and reading. Your book, vagabonding. Years ago gave, me the confidence to. Travel. And explore the world independently. And I just want to bring, you to. Have. A conversation and. Talk. A little bit about traveling. And exploring. And, language learning and, your new, book as well I'm super excited to hear what you, have been working on recently and, what you're excited about so, thank, you so much for joining me here you. Bet I'm always love to talk about travel, so awesome. Very good so yeah, your, your book vagabonding. Kind, of opened the doors to, travel. Just. Changing my mindset I think you, know a lot of people, as you know have this idea that travel, is for, rich, people, or travel, is for like when you retire. Or. It's not for me it's not for the common person, and. After reading, your book it really changed my mindset I remember, I started, traveling, at that time I, also. Teaching. Abroad in Japan and I know you you started, out your, international travels, in that way as well right I. Did. Yeah. Sort. Of with the idea, to, fund, travel. But then of course as you know living overseas. You. Know you learn so much socio-culturally. You learn to sort of internalize, what it's like to be in another culture which is something you can't grasp. Intellectually. Oh yeah. You can read all you want about another, culture and you, could like, eat, all the sushi you want but you'll never know what it's like to be in Japan or South Korea until, you're actually there right, yeah. There an end to, an extent making mistakes, you know and that's almost a word of encouragement English. You might have who are worried about that that it's three. Mistakes that you learn you know you don't want to intentionally, offend your, your host culture but. Yeah. There's there's some like, you said you can read all you want about a place but until you're there and, and sort of negotiating. With the place. It's. A completely different experience I absolutely love that you just said making mistakes can be a good thing because that's what I always say to my, language learners, is that we, need to make more mistakes you, know don't be afraid of that maybe don't make the same mistake over and over and over but, you, know make, it learn from it and that's, really, where you grow. For. Sure yeah and I think. Travel. Or being in other cultures, forces. You to depend. On that language a corollary. For me as Spanish I go to Latin American countries my Spanish is not that great, but, I'm forced, to communicate it enough that I can, get. My point across you know that I speak very, poor Spanish but I get there and I think it's through it's like, it's not that I'm that great at Spanish still but it's. Through speaking poorly, that you that you learn to to keep improving, that you, you.
Learn What works and what doesn't and you begin to have a better ear, for. How people speak. So, yeah. I can't say enough good things about being. Fearless. Enough. To make those mistakes and. There, and and on and on the matter of fear I think often times people there's, a lot of fears at least in the United States I know that not all of your, your. Audience is based in the United States but there's. A lot of fears attached to travel. Dangers. Expenses. But. That I think that ties into this idea that travel is something that you buy you that. You buy this, smooth-edged. Travel, experience, and then you, approach, it as a consumer, where as I say in vagabond and you really it's something you give to yourself it's something you'll allow yourself, to have, and. If you can get past those initially expenses. If you can sidestep. Those, fears and just realize that the fears are not as realistic, as you might think they are then you, could you can be in the world and and be, growing and living. An exciting, life yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, let, me ask you a little bit about the difference, between, traveling. And, vagabonding. I know you've probably explained, this thousands. Of times but, for, someone who may not be familiar with, your work I mean what's the difference between the, two, well. Vagabond, is a subset, of travel, like. Philosophically. I think travel, is something that can happen when you walk to the corner store you, know or talk. To your neighbors but. Vagabonding, is is long-term travel it's about taking time off you're away. From your normal life to travel for an extended period of time so it's not just taking. Vacation. Time or, yeah. Holiday time from work to travel it's it's actually taking time off and. Sort. Of dedicating, a portion, of your life to traveling, long term in a slow and meaningful, way and I. Don't think that there's a hard and fast rule for, how long that is a lot, of people will set a year aside that's a great, increment. Of time but, I think you can go vagabonding, in six weeks you can go back about in for six years so it's, long-term travel in whatever, fits. Your. Interests. And capabilities and, it's, it's not really a contest it. Doesn't, matter how long you travel or how many countries you visit but, it's just about how how. Engaged you are and how open you are to the world and and and. Really. Just being, in a different mindset than you are at home allowing. Yourself to be a full-time traveler, for a while I love, that a lot of people assume, that this is for gap, year like when you graduate, college you, take a year, to travel the world and then you need to get to work that's just what you do but, it's not just for what. 22 year olds right I mean obviously I'm. Not 22 you're not you. Still travel, right, yeah. And, that's something that I have. Since. The book has come out that the culture has shifted a bit so that it's less weird for non 22, year olds to travel. Sort. Of in that in a I did. Another interview recently about, digital, nomadism which was a term that didn't exist when I first wrote. Vagabonding. I think it's come since, you know that like the social media world has grown to. Accommodate. Being. Able to work from, overseas, so you. Know obviously there's people in their 20s 30s 40s 50s who take career breaks who. Take sabbaticals. But, also people, who just. Sort of make their work portable, mm-hm. They. In. The, winter they go to Rio or Cape Town or Hawaii. And they they, work through their computer and they find ways to make it work and a core. Philosophy, of Agra by name is the idea that your time is your truest form of wealth you know that if. You shift things in life and just don't. Prioritize. Material. Wealth and status. Then you can find all kinds of time to travel and live in live. A more interesting life and billionaires, who are you, know burdened, down by mansions, and jet planes all, right I think it really is about prioritizing. As far as you, know affording to travel. It's. About prioritizing. Putting. Some savings. Toward travel. As opposed to whatever. Other, things you could spend money, on so I know a lot of people would, say well sure, you can afford to travel but what about the rest of us I mean maybe they think that someone, who travels is rich but maybe, we've just prioritized. It so. Do you have maybe, some quick tips for people to afford, travel. I know there's a lot of different ways but maybe, for someone who is. Just wondering, how can I afford that. Well. One that is it one thing that isn't even financial, is just decide that you're gonna do it right. You can keep relegating, your travels, to the future but if you say I'm gonna do it and I want to you know depends on your situation but, even if you don't have a lot of money you can say in two years I'm gonna be on the road and.
Then Suddenly it becomes real and then and then maybe. If you if you tell some people who can keep you honest that way and then suddenly you, can find all this wealth in. In. Your day you know I. I'm. In New York right now for the next six weeks and sometimes I go down to get a cup of coffee you know by the time I tip the, barista, it's like $4 as well you know or. $6, I can get ahold Cardinale, coffee and drink, them out of my heart, bingo, mug and, then. Week by week I've saved a lot of money so I think that there's ways I. My. Sister cuts my hair when, I'm back home in Kansas for, free right so, I think your, daily routine. You. Mates you may end up finding ways to save $10, a day but, what happens by the end of the month well, you saved a fair amount of money you know and. So. Really I think that that, once-once. Travel, in your future becomes real, you. Just you start making decisions that prioritize. That. Future experience, and you realize that you're often throwing. Money at situations. At home that you don't need to and, I'm consumed just, by scaling back your routine you, have. A lot more money to save or, there may be opportunities to go work abroad you, know like we mentioned going to teach English abroad or, maybe teaching. Your native language whatever, it may be or something completely different there's, a lot of jobs, that you can do abroad or volunteering, and really, cutting costs, you're, in New York City and I know you were. Just in Hawaii, and I know you've traveled a lot of the u.s., for. A foreigner. Who wants to travel in the u.s. and see. The. Real America. This is kind of a fluted question but right, would you tell them is New York the place to go because that's kind of where everyone thinks that they should go you know so let's say someone from Brazil. Or someone from Japan and, they want to see, America. I mean what. Would you tell them well. I'm not gonna not New York is it's a great world city you know I, it's one of my favorite cities in the world actually but. Really people who come to the United States they, go to New. York and, maybe do a side trip to DC. Or Philadelphia. Or, something they often go to Florida, a lot of Europeans go to Florida for the sunshine. People. Go do a West Coast trips, will they'll do la Vegas, San Francisco. But. You. Really sell, yourself short if you're hopping from city to city right you're, only going to two, places that you've heard about already I'm a huge, fan in the United States you. Have to do a road trip it's worth whatever it costs, to rent or buy a car and drive.
Around And, America. Has these great, interstate. Highways but get, off the interstate highways, drive on little roads go to small towns and I'm from Kansas, which it's it's funny you're you're near Kansas yeah I. Think. In places, where this. Holds, true everywhere actually, if you go to places that other tourists, don't go local, people just have more time for, you and more interest in you and. So you, go to the little cafe, in a town of 500 people and you're Japanese or German. Or Australian, and suddenly you're the most interesting person in the city right yeah, and. So. I, think, that that's that's a way to get out of what I call in vagabonding, the tourist matrix and there's nothing wrong with that but. A lot, of your experiences, are kind, of prepared for you if you're seeing the sights air-quote, the sights in countries. Whereas. If you're just driving. Around and it's just like here's, a town on the map I'm gonna go to boring, Oregon, because that's a funny sounding, name and you, just go and see what's in boring Oregon, taking. Small highways and it's just amazing, how I, mean. Using, my home state as an example Kansas, is seen as a boring place because people take interstate 78 to get to Colorado and it gets very flat and and people get tired of driving in Kansas it's actually there's some there's, some beautiful parts of Kansas who if you get off i-70. Or. Just interesting parts of Kansas that are that are rural and not places. That you would ever see in a guidebook, and. It. Is one thing to go there's some great museums in in New York like the Museum of Natural History, the Met I mean there's, dozens, of good museums but, if you go to the little County, Museum in a rural part of America you can bet that curator, is gonna, you know talk your ear off you know because the, little. Curie I create curator, in Minneapolis. Kansas doesn't. Usually get, travelers. From, Korea. Or China or Brazil or wherever. And. They. Can take an interest, in you in a way that the. Curator at a big Metropolitan. Museum can't, talk, yeah. And so I could preach about this forever but I. Was just gonna add you, know if you go sue. Let's say I'm Brazilian and I go to New York it's very easy to find other Brazilians. And you kind of naturally, gravitate, toward. People from your country I mean it happens to Americans it happens to everyone and so it's too easy to, just fall in with, that crowd and speak, your native language and not really have an, American, experience, whatever that may be so I'm a, fan of telling, people yeah go to Kansas, it's boring, and that's what you want like that's exactly what, you want, to experience, yeah. There's an old onion headline that says, semester. Abroad spent. Hanging. Out with other Americans, in Barcelona, right you know. You. Might think of those as training wheels experience, and I'm by training wheels I mean when you're a child you have training wheels on your bicycle and, then once you learn to ride the bicycle you don't have to have the training wheels anymore and. Sure. Start in New York hang out with some Brazilians. But. Then. Then. You have to sort of jump into that vulnerability, into that fear zone where you're not gonna fall back you there's no Portuguese to speak. Outside. Of these big cities with with immigrant, populations, and so you just go and and you start engaging with people and you. Americans. Love a smile it's, funny we. Smile a lot it's kind of. Yeah. And and we sort of we recognize, you. Know even the air quotes weirdest foreigner if they have a big smile and they're friendly and they're trying to speak people, will will, be charmed, and they'll they'll help you out even if your English is it perfect yeah, absolutely so, that, kind of leads me to another question I wanted to ask you about how to connect, with local peep, because I think especially, in the last few years everyone.
Is You know looking down at their phone and it I feel like it's a little harder to talk to strangers, because a lot of people on the train or in the coffee shop or you know public places where you might meet people are, looking. At social media and I love social media there's a lot of a, lot. Of benefits to using, it also, to connect to people but I mean how do you connect, with people in, real life these days. That's. A good question and that's that's something. Else that has really shifted since I started traveling and, I give some advice in vagabonding. Like find. A sports game you know. Talk. And I I'm, talking to American travelers, usually so I say find some kids who are staying English and and you know throw out some phrases at them just, actually, ask a dumb question you know oftentimes if you're an outsider you have an advantage over a local person because, you can just say hey I'm from Argentina, and I'm hungry and it was a place to eat you know and people, people love to share that information that not everybody some people especially in big cities like New York are gonna be in a hurry. Oftentimes. You can sort of use your foreignness as a pretext, to talk to people and. No, there's. Not never a bad dumb, question, you know dumb questions, are always good because. Yeah. I think, most, people like to help other people who are new. To a place for the first time now, there, are social media options, for meeting people - there's like um there's, meetup groups there's, a couchsurfing. There's. You. Know social, apps you. Know you can you. Can get on I mean, there's dating apps. Sometimes. This may be the, wrong impression. If you're just gonna randomly want to randomly meet people but there's, there's. Equivalents, of that I mean you can even get on your. Facebook, or twitter feed and say hey does anybody have. Any friends in Boston you know ray, I. Would. I, would. Encourage everybody not to be too dependent on that you, know cuz you can meet a lot of people just by reaching out through social media and using, various apps but. Just there's something about the I'm hungry, where, as a place to eat or that, looks like a fun soccer game do you need a goalkeeper you, know those. Simple, person-to-person. Interactions. Are special, yeah, so don't be afraid to ask a silly question I also. Found, that nowadays, a, lot, of people go, through social, media to meet people, in person for example I. Joined. A rock climbing, gym in Kansas, City to make some, new friends because I'm kind of new here and. There's. A Facebook, group associated with, rock. Climbing in, Kansas. City and. People. Post, there if they want climbing, partners, but you could just walk up to someone in the gym and say hey do you want to be my climbing partner but people, don't do, that as much it's, like you're supposed to ask through. The social media first and then meet, in real life so I feel like some, social dynamics, are changing not that you can't, just walk up to people and ask but, I think. It's worth a look you know search. For if there's groups. Of interest or locations, you know that you can kind of link up with people first and you, know you'll hit the ground running, yeah. Well again it's there's no dumb questions you, know the worst thing a person could say is no or I already have one right. And and, even sometimes people are, sort of attracted, I think people use the social media route, because they think that's what the rules are right, I think once you have somebody with a big smile who's asking, dumb questions and.
Inviting, People to be their climbing partner or whatever the equivalent of that is in a different situation, then. They relax a little bit and they're open to it and again some people might not be, interested, in that but some people will and. Even, if you don't get a climbing, partner then you'll you'll sort of have somebody. That you recognize and somebody who, will look at you and think oh there's, that friendly person who, smiles. A lot and asks me that dumb question, I'm gonna go talk to them so it's. Just like building those social networks in real life which is an under. Practiced. Thing these days well, it's the most meaningful, part, of travel. I think I mean I I, love, going, to see museums. And monuments and all that and taking, pretty, pictures but what, I really, remember, is. The, people that I get to talk to in the conversations. And I think you're, missing a lot I mean I'm preaching, to the choir here but you're. Missing a lot of you don't go out of your way and ask, some silly questions, and start some conversations, right yeah. For sure for sure and it's a good like, I'm an introvert by nature and, so travel, forces me to, talk to people sometimes. Just because I'm, lost. Or bored. Or lonely you, know but. But. Yeah I know he gets me out of my shell and forces me to be social in a way that's really good for me I think so. You travel, to. Non-english. Speaking places, how, important, is it to learn the language before you go as. A. Courtesy. Learning phrases of the language is useful. You. Can literally go to places and know nothing of language and do fine is. That because people speak. English generally. Or mm-hmm. Okay yeah, I mean we're privileged as Americans, or those, of us in the Anglosphere having, it as a first language is, really useful because it's the world's second, language right now and, so. But. You know almost anywhere you go there's. So many people traveling, with no phrases, beyond hello and thank you that. If you commit. Yourself to learning 50. Words of Thai you, know more. 10. Phrases, in Portuguese, or whatever then. Suddenly. People, are gonna help you with English regardless. But if you sort of demonstrate, that you can say you know where. Is the bathroom in, a really horrible accent. Then you'll, say it in this sort of adorably, five-year-old, way and. And. It'll charm people I mean this place is like France, for example where, I teach a class a writing. Class every summer and I always, tell my students to learn the pleasantries, because France is a more formal culture, there's this. Reputation. That French people have for being rude but it's actually the opposite the Americans, are the rude ones they're too informal they're not saying hello to. The proprietors, they're not giving. The proper greetings and so you. You master, those. 10. To 20 phrases of French that, can establish you as a polite, you, know you just say really horrible, bones ooh masu and they, will one know that you're trying to be polite and know to know that you're horrible at French and. And, they'll help you out you know that you basically established. Your goodwill and so language, works at several levels and one is direct communication, but also is just an expression that you're not a privileged, American. Who is just swaggering, through on the fact that people should speak English. But, that you're making an effort, yeah. I find that a lot of my English, learners. Really, want to have perfect. English they, want to have excellent, fluency, before they ever travel. Outside their countries, and that's. Admirable but. Then like, you're waiting for this moment that never comes because first of all what is perfect, fluency, I mean native English speakers don't have perfect fluency. So I guess. I'm just kind of making an observation that, I try. To encourage people to just take what you have and go with it and you know you'll learn as you go right. Yeah. For, sure and and, again be fearless, be, willing to make mistakes and, even, you get a lot of interesting perspective, on your own language as, you, make mistakes, another one right and I don't think anybody should wait until they get perfect, right, you, know I taught English. Conversation. English in in Korea, for a while and, one. Thing I learned is that. You. Know the the Yuliya in Korean, the the letter is that contains, L and R and and, we, just use our mouth differently. When. We say an L our. Tongue goes up and when we say an R it sort of curls back and. So just knowing and, I'm just using it like this, is a Korean traveler knowing, that sometimes you're messing up your ELLs and your R's you just sort of knowing that that's you're getting your tongue in shape you know you're doing your exercises.
Thinking. About that you know how did, your students say your name I mean your. Name is like ours. And ELLs and you know it must have been difficult anyway, yeah. In Korean literally if you use the Hangul letters it slow to cool. What. That's, a great that's a great example, you know I could start the lesson with my name and. And, and again I don't think there's a need to be self-conscious. For. Example if you're Korean because, that's just something your your your your mouth is used to forming Korean word but, so. What I'm saying basically whatever language you speak. You. Know French, people drop the H on all their words whereas we pronounce the H just. Just be aware as you're making mistakes, be aware that that's happening, and then you can sort of exercise, your mouth muscles and and sort of have, an intelligent. Approach to, your mistakes as you as, you, gloriously. And enthusiastically. Make. Mistakes in another language I love, that I love that yeah mistakes, are the, starting. Point of learning, so. I want, to ask you what are you doing in New York and what's going on with your new book with souvenir, tell. Us a little bit about that and when is it coming out exactly, and yeah, tell us, well, I'm. In New York because I New York is one of my favorite cities um I have a lot of colleagues and a lot of friends here and, so. I try, to spend as much time in New York as I can I have a friend who's out of the country so I'm staying in his apartment for a while and. It just gives me a chance to see old friends to meet to, meet editors and and. Colleagues, and. Just enjoy. The metropolis for a while because. In. Kansas, where I'm often based I think, the closest town has like 300 people or something so, when. You have 3 million people in a single borough it's. Just nice to be in a dynamic dynamic city and I do this a lot you know um I'll. Have a little sojourn in New York or I'll spend a few months in the winter in. Southern. Africa, or Argentina, or something again it's that sort of that digital, nomad principle, that I'm not spending anymore, that much more money than I would be spending in the United States but, I'm spending it in a unique place so, that's what that explains my time in New York I just haven't a nice opportunity, to house it for a friend and I'm. Enjoying this this wonderful. City as. For the book it comes out I'm not sure when this interview will air but it comes out the, second. Week of March, the. Same time yeah okay yeah this, is my book debut, interview, so alright, it's called souvenir, and it's it's um you know vagabonding. Is a very broad travel philosophy, with a lot of advice whereas, souvenir. Is. Literally. About souvenirs, it's sort of a deep dive into. Ooh this, phenomenon. Sort of the, historical. And psychological, phenomenon, of why we collect these things as we travel, and, as I wrote the book it was really interesting because I think there's something very. Connected. To our core sense of self about connected. Collecting, souvenirs, because we're, traveling through countries, where we can't stay very long we don't belong to these countries so we take a little piece you know we take a little either, we pick up a rock, or off the ground or we save the bottle of soju that we drank at that wonderful party or we. Go to a gift shop and we buy a little, Eiffel, Tower keychain, or a, t-shirt. That says Rio de Janeiro and these. Become, parts of our lives and they become little.
Symbols Of our memories and our, ways of being in the world and so by, the time I was done writing the book I realized that souvenirs, are end, up, whether, we intend to are not becoming deeply, meaningful. Symbols. And metaphors for, how we interact with the world and. How we collect, them changes. Over time and so, it's really interesting so again it's it's not like a sequel to vagabonding, it's not a direct. Book. Of travel advice but it's a deep, meditation, and I think. One. That is a lot of fun and worth. Considering. How. Some. Of the most interesting stories we tell about our lives we, don't tell, with our mouths. Objects. That we surround ourselves when, me when we come home. Yeah. So I have a launch party here on March 26th. At. Quinny's in. New York yeah and. Don't. Have a big book to her plan but I'm really proud of the book and happy, to have it out in the world that's, exciting. Do you personally buy, a lot of souvenirs. Well. That's something I had to consider when I was writing the book because, I felt like I didn't, and there's a lot of. You. Know different iterations, of souvenirs, because there's. Like heirlooms. And mementos, and, keepsakes. And other. Things that are like souvenirs, without quite being souvenirs, you know like I have I have. Mardi, Gras beads from from 2005. Which, was like the last Mardi Gras before Hurricane, Katrina. And I, didn't really think of it as a souvenir but now it's this little symbol of this interesting, time in my life and I have a my. Grandfather's. Zippo lighter and I never knew him he died long, before I was born and so this is this little symbol of, you. Know my family, history and, that that's mixed in with like, these masks, I read about this in the book that these masks, that I bought as I was traveling through Asia and the more I bought the masks the more I realized that I wasn't really sure why I was buying the masks, and. So I talk about that in the book about how our taste in souvenirs, change and, I think and. This is actually borne out by researchers, is that new travelers, buy more souvenirs, than experienced, travelers. Whereas. Experienced. Travelers are more likely statistically. To, take, those pieces of the rock souvenirs, that to pick up to keep a ticket stub or take, a seashell, or or. To keep that t-shirt they wore when they were you, know in the, Samba parade or whatever and. So. I have this mix I have in. My house gift, shop souvenirs, I have little. Soaps from hotels that. Were part of a meaningful trip I have my Kansas City Royals baseball souvenirs. They're. More like keepsakes, but, again they have a also this story yeah. It's sentimental stuff, it's absolutely, not, necessarily, expensive like the things you just listed are pretty, much free but it has some sentiments. But. I'm just imagining your house is covered in, souvenirs. And sentimental, items and do you feel like when you go home do you I mean you, have your home as kind of a place where you obviously. Where you rest and you, you. Can just yeah do, laundry repack. But like is that also where you kind of collect all these things as a memory. Of your travels, yeah. And I don't want to overemphasize. Like. Souvenirs. Themselves because my souvenirs are mixed in with books and and and furniture, and I'm. Like I said keepsakes, and kitchen, utensils and stuff and so. It's not like you walk into my house and you see 500 souvenirs, dominating, the. Landscape but. I mean you use souvenirs, to remember your travels in the same way you use keepsakes, to remember family, members or friends or something. And so. Absolutely. Actually. I have a big bookcase, my office, has is just a whole wall as books because I when I got, my house in. Kansas after years of travel I wanted to have a wall of books and so. Those. Are interesting, evidence relationship. With them because some of them I read and some of them I haven't and now, I have too many books they don't even fit on the Shelf anymore and so it's, like these objects, are sort of in conversation, with each other with, each other and it's sort of this shorthand that only I can understand, like a guest can come in and say well this is an interesting mask where is it from or why is there a boat propeller hanging, on your wall or, what's this picture right. And so I intuitively know, all these things though that boat propeller is when I went down the mekong in Laos and and this mask is is a, you. Know a dance mask from Korea and I got it at the market at this specific market, and and, so it's interesting I think one, take home if.
You Read my book is. That suddenly you'll realize how without. Even realizing, it your youth most. Of us surround ourselves with, these objects, that remind, us of the mean of life and I think a lot of people like I didn't really consider myself a big souvenir collector, before I wrote the book but as I wrote the book I realized that in, a very subtle way I have always, used souvenirs. And objects to sort of ground, myself in in, a kind of sense of self so it. Was it was a fun book to write yeah, I, can't wait to read it I am super, excited for that book to come out and it, sounds like, there's a lot of yeah, a lot of deepness in there I'm excited. March. 8th. Awesome. Well where can people find it in bookstores on Amazon, or on your website or they. Can find it on my website which is Rolf Potts calm. Or. Just you know Rolf Potts souvenir, you can go to Amazon or other online retailers. Big. Book stores will probably have it it's part of the object lesson, series not all bookstores carry, the object lesson series. You. Can order it through any bookstore but, probably the most dependable, you. Know not to shill Amazon too much but I live in the middle of nowhere and there's no bookstores so I end up getting a lot of books and. So. That's a that's a dependable, way to get the book it's just to, order it online, perfect. And if people want to find out more about you, where should they go they. Can start at Rolf Potts calm that's a collection, they. Can read a ton of my travel writing for free before they ever decide if they want to buy a vagabonding. Or Marco Polo didn't go there one of my other books yeah, so, links to my social media you, know at Rolf COTS at instagram, at Rolf Potts at Twitter I'm not, really super prolific, on either there's. A lot of Hawaii pictures up on Instagram, right now yeah, and then, then there's a contact, form there and I always try my best to answer, emails, of you, know for people who send me earnest. Enquiries. And and, greetings. So. That's the starting point Rolf pass calm perfect. Well I'm so glad you responded, to my message and that we could have this conversation thank, you so much off you, bet happy travels.