Touring in a Post-COVID World | #ArtistsAreNecessaryWorkers
Good evening everyone. My name is alex saya e m, administrative. Assistant at dance nyc. My pronouns. Are, she her. And i identify, as a non-disabled. Queer black woman. Artist. Creator, and infinite, being. I am currently in my hometown, of queens new york on the land of the lenape, people. I am light skinned, with brown, faux locs, in a bob. And a lavender, shirt and my background. Is a deep purple wall. First. Thank you for joining, us for this digital experience. And for being adaptable, in these challenging, times. As we are at the mercy of technology, we want to remind, you, that there may be delays. Sound issues, and changing circumstances. That may occur during our time together. We invite you to extend grace and patience. To each other. As we manage this virtual landscape. Second. Asl, interpretation. By sarah ann, and brandon kaizen maddox. From lc interpreting, services. As well as closed captioning, services, provided, by cara dugus. Of the scardy, center, will be available throughout the entire event. At times, due to zoom to facebook streaming difficulties. The closed captioning, service does not stream, as accurately, as we'd like to. Therefore. A live transcription, will be available, via dance nyc. Stream to text link, now pinned in your comment section. Third, please, note that this session is being recorded, and will be saved on our live facebook live channel. Right in the video, tab of the dance nyc, page, under playlist. Entitled. Artists, as necessary, workers. Facebook, live conversation, series. These recordings, will be also available. With closed captioning, on our youtube channel, after the series is over. Fourth. Feel free to post in the comment section on facebook, with questions or comments you may have for the speakers. We will be gathering, them throughout the duration, of the conversation. We will present the most relevant, questions. That the time allow. Um. Fifth. In the case we need to quickly end this session. Due to disruption. Have no fear, you will hear us say abort, three times and we'll end this session, and we'll resume within five minutes. Right here on facebook, live. Lastly. We hope you will help us to amplify, these, conversations. Hit the share arrow, to allow. This. Hit the share arrow to share this live conversation, directly to your page. Repost. Tag us and share your takeaways, on twitter. At, dancenyc. On instagram. At. Dance.nyc. And facebook, at dance. Nyc. Using the hashtag. Artist as necessary, workers, and dance nyc. Live. As we continue to host these conversations. This being our ninth, we are learning how to create dialogue. Spaces, that reflect both our values, as a team and organization. And the intention of the series, is to dive deeper and hold space, for the experiences. Of dance workers within our community. We're committed to hosting these conversations. In as wide a format, as possible. For example, using facebook, rather than only, zoom registration, for participants. However, as these conversations. Continue to move through highly public spaces. We have felt it is important to articulate, a series, of community guidelines. By which we hope to hold the space, and invite our participants, to honor them, as we share space together. These guidelines. Are a living commitment, and may grow, and or change to reflect our learning, as a staff, organization. And in relationship. To you, it's participants. And beneficiaries. If you have suggestions. Additions. And or feedback, for these guidelines. Or for any part of our programming, we invite you to share them, via our post event survey.
Or Via email, at info, dance nyc. We ask that folks participating. And or benefiting, from today's event via comments, on facebook, follow these. First upon participating, in this event as a viewer or commenter. You are entering a virtual space, of learning. Reflection. Respect, and accountability. That is based on dance nyc's. Values, of justice, equity and inclusion, which can be found on our website. This means that we agree to, share our opinions. Challenge perspectives. And engage, or debate respect. Respectfully. And acknowledge, and course correct if harm is caused. We honor everyone's, personhood. And humanity. We do not tolerate, hate speech, that is disparaging. Abusive. Violent, or that is intended to defame, someone's character, publicly. And lastly, if anyone acts in violation, of these guidelines. They will either be warned, and asked to course correct or removed, depending on the severity, of the action. We thank you for your collective, agreement to these guidelines, to ensure that our space remains, generative, for and respectful. Of our community. And now, we'll begin. Touring in a post covent world. Artists as our necessary, workers, facebook, live conversation. Series. As a way of deepening, our work, and learning and racial justice, we regularly, practice, land acknowledgements. At meetings, and public convenings, to recognize, our country's, violent history. And its legacy, in the space we occupy. This practice, is currently under development, with the guidance, of indigenous, dance artists and activists, emily johnson. To ensure, that we, embody this allyship. This includes taking actionable, steps towards reparations. In this initial, instance, by nurturing, relationships. With local indigenous, and first nations, artists, and organizations. And making pathways, for lenape, artists, and leaders to learn to return, to lenape, hogan. Today. I would like to acknowledge, that the city of new york is on stolen, land. More specifically. Lenape, hoking. The unseated, homeland, of the lenape, people. Who are also recognized. Federally, as a delaware, nation of oklahoma. And adarco, oklahoma. Delaware, tribe of indians. Bartlesville. Oklahoma. Stockbridge. Muncie, community. Bowler wisconsin. And in canada. Muncie, delaware, nation. Moravian. Of the fames, first nation. Delaware, of six nations. The lenape, people are the original, inhabitants. And caretakers. Of this land, and gave manhattan, island its name, manahata. Meaning hilly island or place where we go to gather the wood for the bows. Additionally. As we are gathered digitally, and inspired, by adrian wong of spiderweb. Show. In what is currently called canada. I invite us to consider the legacy, of colonization. Embedded, with technologies. Structures, and ways of thinking we use every day. We are using equipment, and high-speed, internet, not available, in many rural indigenous, communities. That at times, leave significant, carbon, footprints. Contributing, to climate change that disproportionately. Impacts, indigenous. Communities, worldwide. We acknowledge, that changing these inequities, are our sacred response. Our shared, responsibility. As are our roles in reconciliation. Decolonization. And allyship. We recognize, that as an organization. Based in nyc. We have benefited, and continue to benefit, from the systemic, displacement. And subsequent, erasure, of lenape, people and the governance, on their land. Please join, me in taking a moment to recognize. And reflect, on the centuries, of violence. Displacement. Forced migration, and settlement, here. As well as the centuries, of resilience, and leadership, of all indigenous, and first nations peoples. On turtle island, that have led to our presence, and livelihoods, in new york city. Today. Continuing. Our practice of recognition. We would like to name openly, the legacies. Of, the african, slave trade. Migration. And immigration, patterns. The disability, rights and disability, justice, movements. And lgbtq. Plus fight for justice. These are areas, and tactics of oppression. Through which white supremacy.
And Settler colonialism. Have enacted, and sustained, its power over time. They are not only, are, they are not only the only areas, but rather the main focuses, of dance nyc's, ongoing, historical, acknowledgement. Practice. And justice, and equity and inclusion, strategy. We would also like to take a moment of silence in remembrance, of the victims of covet 19, around the world, and to honor the unseen labor. Of the many people that continue, to ensure the safety, and well-being, of our community, in these trying times. Including, but not limited, to frontline, workers. Lastly. And certainly not least, we acknowledge, and mourn, raya milton. Dominique. Remy, fells. Justin, howell. Sean, monterosa. Jamel floyd. Nina pop, tony mcdade. George floyd. Brianna, taylor. Ahmad, arbory. Richard, brooks. David mcatee. And all black people whose lives have been taken by the actions of white people, institutions. And systems. And the many accomplices. Witnesses, and beneficiaries. Of white supremacy. Who have actively participated. In or stood by and observed in silence. Over the past few weeks we've also witnessed, as a nation, and city. The palpable, impacts, that systemic, racism, has on the lives of black and indigenous, people. Peoples of color, immigrants. Disabled. And immuno-suppressed. People. Lgbtq. Plus people. People living in low-income, communities, and poverty, impacted. By covet 19.. White supremacy. Continuously. Manifests, itself in violence, at the hands of law enforcement. And in interpersonal. Interactions. Our government's, response to covet 19, and our cultural institutions. Let us take a final, moment, of. Silence. Thank you. For those of you who are new to the organization. Dance nyc, delivers, five core services, for the field. Advocacy. Action-oriented. Research. Leadership, training, and convening. Technological. Resources, through our website, and grant making. All to empower, dance makers and cultural workers. Build audiences. And strengthen the collective, voice for the art form. Dance nyc, works in alliance with the national, organization, dance usa. To drive local, national. Synergies. In dance service delivery. You can learn more about our programs, at our website. Dance.nyc. On may 14th, dance nyc, launched a campaign, declaring, loudly. That artists, are necessary, workers. This campaign, which will run through early august. Demands, the acknowledgement. Representation. And integration, of dance and art workers. In the decision-making. That will envision, our future, post-pandemic. Artists, serve new york city at every level. Leading tourism. Strengthening, education. Fueling the economy, and ensuring our health wellness. And imaginations. So far. Dance nyc, has released the artist our necessary, workers, campaign, video, featuring. Members of our dance community, displaying, our strength and power in numbers. We have written a letter and are now working with the mayor's office of new york city to insist on dance having a seat at the table. And lastly. We have curated the series of public conversations. With arts workers to discuss, challenges. Offer considerations. And envision, our way forward as a field. Our conversation, today will focus on arts administrators. And organizers. Working tirelessly, through this movement. For this moment. I'll turn it over to our moderator. Manager, of justice, equity and inclusion. Candice, thompson, zachary, to lead us in our discussion. Thank you. Thank you, alexa. For that wonderful, introduction. Um. And thank you everyone for tuning in today. Uh as you said i'm candace thompson zachary. My pronouns, are she her hers. I am, calling, or calling in from the land of the lenape, and canarsi, people, in what is currently, known as brooklyn new york. I'm a non-disabled. Black woman of caribbean, heritage. I'm wearing a black dancing white t-shirt. Dangly, earrings. I am brown skinned with an, auburn, afro. And my background, is a red wall. With books, and shells. So. Again thanks for joining us for this conversation, today, that will be on touring. And its role in our world of dance making and presenting.
So Of course, as we speak now most touring engagements. Have come to, a screeching, halt. Companies, that relied, on this model of earned income. And reaching their communities. Are now, in a state of stasis. Probably, self-preservation. And re-evaluation. So. Uh as we've mentioned, in previous conversations. Conversations. This has brought on the reconsideration. This moment has brought on the reconsideration. Of many, of the practices. That were previously, considered, inextricable. From our, economy, of performance, presentations. So our main questions today relate to what are artists, doing. That, relied, on touring for their livelihoods. How are they thinking about their practice. How are their news responding, or redirecting. Their operations. And finally how are arts workers, producers. Agents, etc, who support this economy, also shifting. As we dive, into this conversation, i also wanted to think about scoring, from. Uh, other perspectives. So, you know before. This moment of covid, dance nyc. Qualitative, data shows that touring economies, were not as lucrative. As they were previously. Many companies, subsidize, their touring budgets with other forms of income. And additionally, from my own experiences, as an artist, um it seems that the touring circuit itself, is this closed, network of privileged, relationships. So, many have also reflected, that soaring models. At times reinforced. Colonial, patterns, of swooping into communities, with preordained. Notions, of, virtuosity. And aesthetics. And not to mention the carbon footprint, that touring, also requires, so we're looking at both the. Um necessity. And the role that it plays in our art psychology, but also, maybe, some of the downsides. To the way that touring is currently set up. Um, so. For this conversation. I'd like to be able to look both towards. Current responses, to the shifting, possibilities, of scoring, and then also look towards the future, of what these engagements, could be, so i'm happy to welcome, our guest today. Uh we have with us anna glass. Laura, colby. Lane duplinsky. And marjani, forte, saunders, who are respectively, eds, of companies. Artist, agents. Performing, arts directors. And artist choreographers. So. Yeah, we almost have everyone, here. Laura i think we're just waiting for your video to come on. There we go great. Thanks so much for joining me folks. So i think if we could just, go around, and do our introductions. Just a brief one so that everybody knows who's in the room.
And Then we can kind of dive deeper into. What you do and who you are and. What your life is like. Anna you want to begin. Sure, hello everyone, my name is anna glass i'm the executive, director, of dance theater of harlem, my pronouns. Are. She, hers. I am, a, non-disabled. Light-skinned, african-american. Woman, i'm wearing, a. Black. Blouse. Situated. Today. On the land, of the, potowatomi. People, um here in michigan. Um i am, sitting right now on a gray couch, um. Behind, me uh situated, between, two. Blue lamps, and a light blue wall, and a full arrangement, and i'm happy to be here today. Thanks, thanks for joining us. Lane you want to go. I think you're so muted. Lane. I was so ready. Hello, my name is lane chaplinsky. My pronouns, are he him, i'm calling in from what is commonly known as columbus, ohio, which is, on the land of the lenape. Miami. Shawnee. Hopewell. And wyandotte, people. I am a non-disabled. 50 year old white man of ukrainian, heritage. I am wearing a black polo, have longish gray hair and i'm wearing glasses. And i'm sitting in front of a white wall with a long portrait, within a batch. Thanks for that lane. My journey. Hey everybody. I'm marjani. Forte, saunders. I my pronouns, are she her, and hers. Um, i am coming to y'all, from the. Land of the haha manga, people which is of the also of the tonga people the tonka, tribe. Um, also commonly known as pasadena. California. All the way on the west coast. I am wearing a ghanaian, multicolored, jumpsuit. And yellow dangle earrings. I am an african-american. Woman. Thank you. Laura. Hi there, laura colby, my pronouns, are she her hers. I, am, sitting, on the land of the alone, people, currently. Known, as berkeley california. This is where i've been since my last flight on march 14th, otherwise, you would usually find me on the land of the lenape. I identify, as a non-disabled. White woman of european, heritage, with blonde, hair, and blue eyes, i'm in a large room. With, a cabinet with glass doors, behind, me. Cool. Thank you lauren thank you everybody, for. Describing, yourself and sharing who you are with us. So before we dive into like the meat of the conversation. I think we could just go around, and talk. More about yourself. About your work, maybe your organization. If that's what you do. Um. And. Yeah i think just like deep introduction, so we get a sense of who you are, and how you operate. Anybody wants to go first. I'll, go. So as i shared i'm the executive, director of dance theater harlem. We are a 51, year old institution. Founded by the legendary, arthur mitchell. Um, i we were founded. Uh. Out of, um. Tragedy, the assassination. Of dr king, um, inspired. Arthur mitchell, to create, dance suit of harlem. Um with the intention. Of, doing two things one dispelling, the myth that black people. Did not have the, um acumen, or skill, to, do ballet, but then also. With the intention. Of setting, forth. The belief. That ballet belongs, to everyone, and so. This is an institution, that has been firmly. Um. Rooted, in its social justice, mission, um, also.
Um, Being rooted, in this beautiful, art form of ballet. Um, i have always, been. Affiliated, with dance institutions. Um. Having worked, as a booking agent for many years, representing, the dayton contemporary, dance company. Then moved over to the presenter, side. Working, as managing, director of 651. Arts. I've had a long. Career, as a freelance, producer, as well before going to. Dance theater of harlem. But have a personal, love, for the art form as a former dancer, myself. Um and raising, a seven-year-old. Dancer, as well. And. That's really a bit about me. Thanks for that. Yeah. And thanks to what dth. You know has done and what they. What they mean for us in new york and for the larger. Stamp community. Thank you. Lane you want to take it, you bet. Uh. I, for the last three years, have been, at the, wexner, center for the arts in columbus, ohio. Where i'm the director of performing, arts. The wexner, center is a non-collecting. Institution. A kunsthal. Style. Multi-disciplinary. Venue with a film video program. Exhibitions. A robust, education, department. Public programs. Before that i was the artistic, director, of on the boards in seattle for 15 years. And, uh. Where. Um, among other things, we started a program called on the boards tv where we document. Projects. With multi-camera. Shots. And split profits with artists, and distribute, those i think there are currently, 105. Universities. Or so that. Uh subscribe. To the to that service, and teach those, those projects, in their classrooms. Wow, yeah. And another thing was working very closely with. The, particularly, the northwest. Artistic, community, to produce, new projects. Um. Something that was really i learned a lot from. And, uh. Before that i was at the brooklyn academy of music. Um. And. This september, marks 26, years that i've actually. Been an arts administrator. And. It has me at this point. Thinking a lot about what next generation. Leadership. Looks like, and how i invest in that. Yeah thank you for sharing that, uh so you were in new york and then, kind of left ended. Other things okay. Nice. Marzani. All right so again i'm marjani, forte, saunders. I am cheesing, because i'm so excited, and honored to be here. I am a choreographer. And performer. But i'm also one half of the collective, a sound and uh, movement collective, uh we call ourselves, seven names and that is a work of myself, and composer, ever saunders. We call ourselves, um experimenters. And experimenters. And black radical, performers. Um and that is really at the heart of what we do, but we're also co-founders, of an emote emerging, platform, for the past, three. To four years we've been organizing. Both, here, in a local community, of families, and artists in pasadena, california, but also. Within our larger network around the country. To create. Art and power. Which is committed to black wellness, and innovation. Um enacting, that work through the transformative. Intersections. Of art. Science. Spirituality. And culture. And so that's really, picking, up on the legacy. Of work, that we stand, on. Which includes. A long history in urban bush women a long history. And, current practice, in the work of the people's institute, survival, and beyond. And that list really goes, extraordinarily. Long. Um so again it's an honor to be here thank you. Thank you johnny, and i i think i first met you. Maybe. 10 years ago it might be more. Yeah i took your class, i think i was trying to take samantha's, piece class and you were subbing for her that day so i think that was the first time i met you um at the old at dna. When it was still dna, yeah so, thank you for that and then you, uh you are by coastal. If i. Okay, right we've been based here in pasadena, since covet 19, shut down so this is where we've been doing our stay at home thing. Um. Now also based in bedside, which is, our home community, in brooklyn. Thank you. Laura. Hi. Uh, i'm a no longer practicing. Classically, trained, modern dancer. Performed. Well into my, 40s. I've been working as an arts administrator, for the last, 30, years. And, i found the founder and president, of lc management. Which is an artist management, company, based, in brooklyn. That is now in its 25th, year. And through elsie. I, represent. Independent, artists, and touring companies, in the genres, of contemporary, dance, contemporary, theater. Circus. And, outdoor spectacle. And, most recently, i've been very involved, with, uh creating, new futures. Which, a, group of colleagues. Based in new york philly.
Minneapolis. Um. And. Uh. And we have been taking a look at what a radical. Reimagining. Of the performing, arts world could mean. And, entered in phase two. Yeah thank you and i hope we get to, talk, we get there in the conversation, today. Uh yeah so you know thank you for those deeper introductions, to this like the people who are watching. Can know a bit about you if this is their first experience. Um. With here in utica, knowing about your work. Uh but i think we should just talk about you know what has, this, halt, in in-person, programming, done for you for your work for your practice, for your organization. Um, and i'm assuming that you know touring, is a big part of. Your. Either practice as an artist, or the, the program, that your organization. Needs, the work you do as an agent. So i think it would be it would be great to hear, from each of your perspectives. What has this, um. Pause, meant. And and how are you, thinking about it or or shifting. How you operate. So i think yes go when you're when you're ready it's when the spirit moves you. So i'll, start again. For the moment. Um. So. We were actually the company. Was actually. On stage in detroit. When. The shutdown, was happening. We, were just finishing, up a lecture demonstration. For students, we we had a, four. Event, engagement. With the detroit opera house. And had just finished. The first. Aspect, of, our engagement. And. When the company came off stage. We had gotten word. That. The state of michigan, was starting to shut down, and, surely, shortly thereafter, new york was shutting down and so we had to quickly get the company. Back to the city. It was uh, from a from a financial, standpoint. Um, it was a massive, hit for us um, we were just. Um. Entering, into the spring, portion, of our touring. Um and so all of those dates. Um, ultimately, it took a while, i have to say um i'd be curious. Um. From, from laura's, perspective. What she was seeing, but, it really took a while for many of our colleagues, to really make the decision. To. Um. Uh. Recognized, that we were going into, this, this world, and that we were going to have to, either have conversations. About cancellation. Or. Um, rescheduling. It was a bit of a chicken and egg, scenario, honestly, because, you know there were signed, contracts. Um, and, you know no one wanting to, be, um. In breach of contract. And so. Fortunately. Um, finally by the time. You know things were starting to move. The executive, order, came down from cuomo, that really sort of gave us the out. Um, to, to back out of. These engagements. Not really knowing, how long it was going to take and so you know we had engagements. That were happening, in may. You know we're sitting in march, and i think people really thought that may, was a possibility. Um. Yeah i didn't think that at all. Um, and so. You know. Now, you know i think to, the point, that um. Laura, is is you know hopefully we'll talk more about. Um. You know we we have moved, um. All of our touring for the most part out of the fall, um that took some, some effort, um, i was really surprised. That there were people that really wanted to still have conversations. About activity, happening in the fall. Um. So we've pushed everything, into 21. And i think you know there's another round of conversations. That need to happen about pushing, even further, into 21.. Um. But i i also am really. Interested, in in, sort of looking, at, this touring model, and is there another, way that we should be approaching, this, um. What is the relationship. Between. You know this assuming. That we, are able to figure out how to even rehearse. Um. Which is you know the hurdle that still hasn't been figured out yet.
Assuming, That that gets figured out. What i'm really curious, about, is. Um, is there. Something to be, learned from these digital platforms. Particularly. In communities, that may not be able to afford. Um companies, like dance theater of harlem. Are there other ways that we should be looking at, what does it mean to bring art to communities, and i'm not saying. Not do live performance, because i'm a huge huge. Proponent. Of live and in person, i don't think that that should ever go away. But i do think that, one of the things that we're seeing at dance theater, is that. Covet, has just been the big, reset, button, on all aspects, of our business model that just didn't really ever work, and so i think it's imperative. That we take a look at these models. Really ask, ourselves. What are the aspects, of them that are working and not working. And are there other ways. That we can accomplish. Something, similar, if not the same, thing. Approaching, it very differently. Um. So, you know we are investigating. That from a touring, place you know, you know everything is sort of up in the air to be honest with you and i don't know if we, really, know what it looks like or when it will look like what it needs to look like. But we do know. That we're heavily. Linked to the income we're having heavily, connected, to the um, and so finding, ways in which we can, still earn income. And perhaps. Not necessarily. Be putting ourselves. Um. In harm's way, or. You know maybe there's other ways to approach it, are things that we're investigating. Yeah thank you for that and that's i mean quite a story, to like have the orders come down while you're. On stage and elect them in another state. Um. But yeah you bring up so many things that people are considering. That ever you know all of us are considering, it's like, how do we navigate the contract, how do we keep our downside safe, how do we still make payroll. How do we you know, where will we find this new money from so, i think that, the fact that you're using this time as, a reflection, a time, to reflect, and see what new things are possible. It's something that a lot of people are. Kind of can. Relate. To. I'm thinking, that. Oh laura were you about to say something. Well i think i was going to drop in, as. An artist and a maker. In a smaller, way working in a micro scale.
I'm Hearing you so much, anna, speak to. How this is impacting, the larger company model. Which, you know blows my mind. But, as a family of artists, who had touring, lined up. With. Everett touring with janelle casaco. You know across, europe, and, and then us and seven names incubating, a new project. Uh, over, 2020. I think our entire. Income. Uh, faced, uh. Uh, you know a possibility. Of like utter dear. And, um. I think we, really, i think as we were emerging, and chewing on these ideas. With art and power about how we were going to show up in a really. Local way. And also support, artists of like minds who were innovating, across, the nation, and be in that kind of conversation. We. Started. Looking at. How our work. One of the things let me start off is that we remember, is that artists, are at the forefront, of revolutionary. Movements. Historically. You have to remember, like oh wait. If we get back to the digging place and if we dig and reconnect, to our community, of artists and thinkers, and innovators. Across, sector. Then, we may remember that, while we don't necessarily. Have answers. To address, covet 19. What we can do is look at our processes. And look at how we can communicate. Those processes. To work in partnership. With our field. To keep the work happening. I think that really became, like the conversation. That we were having with our partners, both the seven names. And with our conversation. As an emerging, platform, with art and powers. How do we keep the work happening. Because also what we know historically. Candice, is that. The, creativity. Is going to happen. It don't matter if the building's like just like the bronx showed us when it came to hip-hop, it don't matter if the building is burning down we gonna make the art. That's something that's going to happen no matter what, so then how do we get in conversations, with these systems into institutions, that actually have historically. Disenfranchised. Us. And help them rethink. Both from a creative and a more humane, place how to dig in, and so that's really been like the conversations, that we've been having, in. In several different ways some of that emerging, in the form of satellite, residencies. Um that i'm sure we can speak more to later but that's part of how we were looking at it. Yeah. Thank you for that marjani. It's like, basically, remembering, who you are remembering. What, your purpose is like at the root of it, what do we do. That's. Right. Well, i'll pipe in, uh lc management, is comprised, of three, myself. Our vice president, anna amade. And our contract, manager, ximena, alviar. We work as a team, and, proudly represent, right now, 20, artists, and companies, we had several companies, out on the road. Our cancellations. Actually started, as early, as february, because one of the companies, that was incoming. Was one of our italian, companies. And. They were meant to be performing, in. Had issued. Uh no italians. Allowed to enter. And. Because. Italy. Was. One of the first hot spots on the globe, right so that was the beginning. For us and by march 14th, everything basically. Ground to a halt, um. To anna's, point, i mean. If we live in a country of 50 states. Um, with zero federal, direction. On this situation. And it is a mess. Uh i would swear if i was allowed to but i won't. So. It's um. I mean it is, it. It is incredibly, frustrating, because. Uh. Again back to honest, point at anna's point every single contract. Every single engagement. We don't want to be in breach, so someone has to invoke force major, to cancel the date. We are so accustomed to force measure events, being. Uh, a 24-hour. 48, hour, maybe a week long, maybe a week long, but not. This, never-ending. Thing, and so. What blew my mind is people were even asking, is it force major, well of course it's for schmidt's, more this is totally, and completely, out of our control. Um, so yes there were closures.
Came In the oddest, ways, and yes we all thought oh maybe it'll be over in six weeks so. Or six months even, so what were spring. Cancellations. Got moved into the summer or maybe some got in moved into fall of 20 and now of course we're all. All of 20 has disappeared, and now we're all looking into winter at 21. And. Um so for us what it is meant for us is that our artists. All that, lined up work is gone. We. We earn our income, based on their, engagements. So we have no income in sight. Um as a small business, we were able to, get a ppp, loan. Um but all that money, is a band-aid. Uh, it will all be used up in a couple of weeks, and. We will inevitably, as a team i'll go on unemployment. And we'll limp along, until we can start having, engagements, again and our artists will start earning money again. Um, but it's, it's, daunting. We are all mourning, the loss, of live performance. Our industry, was the first to close, it will be the last to reopen. Um, we are definitely, looking, to online, content. And i know we'll talk more about that. Um. I have been working with outdoor, performances. For years. And so i have a lot of hope. For the outdoor. Uh platform. Way beyond the band stage. Way beyond the band stage, so. Installations. Um. Street, performances. There's just that you know we do have the great outdoors, when the weather is cooperating. Um but i think we are in this for the long haul. This is not, going to be fixed. Um, and i know we're all looking to the vaccine, and that's great, but then, we have a compliance, issue. So. Um. It's, it's a very hard moment, on our industry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then that's really all there is to say. Um. I think. We're at a point, now, where. You know and i think yeah like what anna said. In the beginning we were all like well maybe this will be over in a few two to three months but i think we're all at that point now where everybody's, like. Oh. Crap. This is not ending anytime, soon so it's like we're all, um oh at least what i'm noticing, is that we're all trying to wrap our minds around. The fact that. This is something we're going to have to contend with for a long time and what does it mean. To be out of, like business as usual. For, an in like indefinite, period of time, so. Yeah. Yeah with regard to covid, i mean when that when that showed up. You know my first. Concern, and really only concern was trying to figure out how to get people paid. And, being within a huge. Institution. You know i was freaked out about what the prospects, of that were going to be. Luckily we were able to jump on that, and. I work with some really good people both within the institution, and also just, in, university, in general who are able to work really hard to. Make sure that. Not just, contracts, got paid out, but that. Commissionings. Fellowships. Uh yeah. And all of that happened, you know but. You know these other pandemics. That. Have gone on much longer, systemic, racism. And, environmental. Ruin, and all of that comes to a head so then. It's not just about, how we're contracting. Artists or how we're figuring out the next you know scope of work, it's really about how we're having difficult conversations. Within our institutions. To change. All of this. And. How to hold space. And how to listen. And really fundamentally. Slow down, and. Ask that question i think that you're asking is if. The touring, in this case the touring ecology, your system if that if that needs to change because it's also a system that taps into other systems, that, are highly problematic. So, um you know it's interesting, seeing biden. Announce, a. Environmental. Platform. But it's really tied to, you can't unpack these things from one from the other and i think that that's the opportunity, for all of us to rethink. All of the work that we're doing. Um, because they're just. We've gotten wrong and you know i i'm, really aware of the, the privilege, and power that i've occupied, for you know going on 26, years and.
I Really was struck by the article that was in the paper, by nick about nick cave, the artist. And he talked about that, the idea of looking in the mirror. And. Coming to terms with what you've done and what what you haven't done. I've been thinking about that a lot, and. That's, when i talk about next next generation, leadership, i guess i'm just. Really trying to think about. How we can do this differently. And how we can help other people do it differently. Yeah. So you're in that kind of. Reconsidering. Everything, reconsidering. And. Yeah you know and and luckily, luckily. Um. You know this was at the beginning of any of that but i guess, something i've been thinking about also, is i think it maybe comes down to a matter of urgency. I mean, on one hand i've been thinking about urgency, versus, sort of a dutiful. Action. And when you're acting dutifully. You are walking. You know. You're. You're going through your life, at a normal pace. When you're acting with urgency. You're putting everything, possible, that you can into something, because. If you don't you understand how dire things are. And you know i've been i've been holding that up for myself, and thinking. About, about those two things, and what does that look like how do you. How do you act with more urgency. Um. So you know i can point to. People i'm working with or steps i've taken, or things that we've been doing for a long time. But. I think it maybe comes down to that urgency, question. Right, how fast were we moving with those things go anna, i was just going to say i agree with what lane is saying i think the challenge, though that we're facing. Is that. In the same way that there hasn't been a federal response. To. Covet. I don't think that there's been a collective. Conversation. Yet, in our field, about how we want to approach, this. And so. There are. Entities. Presenters. Artists, agents. That, are saying the things that you're saying lane and they're engaging, in the world in that particular, way and then the flip side of it is that then you get. Um, requests, for. Marketing materials, for your brochure. And it's like okay wait what's happening. Right now. Where are we in this, conversation. And there's just this disconnect. That's happening because. You know. There's that and then there's, the other side of it for for. Say with my dth, head on. The economics. Of this. Is also playing. There's this tension. Um because i, i equally, want to just say let's pause, here can we just all decide, this season, let's just it's not happening. But we're all going to take our hits we're going to advocate. For as much as possible. For us to financially, weather this the federal level let's all sort of collectively, put our energy.
For More ppp, so that we can make it through. However, in these next 12 months. This is what we're going to do we're going to figure out this system because the system doesn't work it hasn't worked forever, and and and that's what we're going to focus our attention, on. We've got this like push pull, happening. Where we kind of want to be in these conversations. About the future, and yet, at the same time i'm expecting, you guys to be here in february, and i'm you know and i'm like wait. I can't figure out which one. To be responsive. To. And, and so, you know i i think that. These conversations. Are great and i'm really happy that they're happy, happening, and i know laura that you've been really actively, involved. In these conversations. About the future. And i i would love to see. More of that i think that. There are all these conversations. Happening, you know i, there's the culture, at three conversation. In new york city and, i think san francisco, has their conversation. And washington, dc, has their conversation. And we're all having the same, conversation. We may be approaching, it differently but we're not sharing, information. And so there's all this cacophony. Happening. And and i'm not seeing. Um. That we're, sort of on this singular, path. Together, we may all be coming at it from different places, and we all may have, information. To input. But i feel like we're gonna this these 12 months or 24, months or however long they're going to go by like this. And we will have not accomplished, anything, we'll just have been looking at one another, you know having these brilliant conversations. And yet we'll then fall back into an old model. That just didn't work to begin with and and so. You know i don't know laura if you're able to share a little bit about. The work that you have been doing and and what you sort of see. From your perspective. As it relates to this conversation. Yeah. Talk about that the creating new futures. Effort, um, with the colleagues, across, philly chicago. I neglected, to mention minneapolis. And new york city, i did post the website. On the chat, um. I'll do it again, but, um.
The, So there is that conversation, anna, and i do, uh i also serve on the, board, of our national service organization. Apac, association, of performing arts professionals. They are starting to convene. Groups, around. Very specific, topics, mike. Sorry, my contribution. To the creating, new futures. Uh document. Was very specifically, around contracts, in force major. And there actually, is, a lot, of, very concrete, things happening. Um there are. New clauses. Um. Being. Passed around the industry. Representing. The covid, pandemic, moment. There is discussion, of changing language, simple, steps, like. Not using the word. Um deposit. But say payment, instead. Acknowledging. That the artists, work that the the 12, 48, months of work that goes into, making, whatever. They're bringing to you. That work needs to be paid for, and not on the date of the engagement. But. Preferably. On the way, and no, it's not refundable. No. No matter what happens. So. There are, i have faith anna. It's a big country. And, i have faith that in 12 months. We'll get our we will by that time. Somehow, manage to convene, we are a big country we are not the size. Of france, we you know we don't work, that quickly, and that efficiently. So. I think it, looks, a bit like a motley mess right now but frankly, that's our process, always has been. And. I think that we will. Be able to convene. Nationally. I think it is so. Important, to remember. The strength, of our industry. The performing, arts contributes. Over, 700. Billion. Dollars, to the u.s economy. That is more than agriculture. It is more than transportation. We employ, nearly, 5, million, arts workers. We. We export. More than we import. We have to. You know we have to screen this at the top of our lungs, we are not, just. You know we we have some serious muscle. And i think. We're not open now. We have to you know we have to do this. There are movements, in new york the d and the d-a-n-c. The wage, folks. Um. You know, i i think that we're in a moment, of a lot of conversations. And i do have faith that it will coalesce. Into affected, change. Thank you thank you. Laura, uh i think what i'm hearing from. I'm pulling a few strands together but, this idea, of like lane's idea of. Urgency, versus, beautiful. Action. Um, and then like anna's, call for us to collectively, decide that this is a moment, where, we need to stop. Like we don't need the marketing material. Can you tell me what your anti-racism. Clause is like you know what i mean that this is a moment, where. We need to agree on what is important, i guess, what we should be focusing, on. Um. And, and with the work that you're also doing. With creating new features. Laura i'm just thinking about i guess, how does. Our dreaming, for the future, appear, today, appear in in the present, right like how do we make that more visible or more active somehow, and not put it off for some like. Uh unseen. Unknown, destination. Like how do we make it. Um, appear, in our presence. On that thought though i'm gonna pause, and read some of the comments that are coming in on facebook. Uh i just wanna shout out a few people who are active in the comments, michelle fletcher. Nikki paraiso. Elta samuel, smith. Eva, santewa. Michelle fletcher gave a few. Comments. Uh, i'll read the last one urgency. That is not reactionary.
Urgency, That is mindful. Urgency, that is sustainable. Within the slow war burning, change. Yeah. Thank you for that mattel. Um. We also she also shared we need, pua, extended. And further relief funding for all arts workers, not just performers, yep exactly the fact that we all play different roles in the ecology. Um, and then. Uh heather robles who's also on our team responded, to michelle saying we can move, with alacrity. While also being thoughtful, the speed of action, is both responsible. And necessary. In our responding, as a feel to these times. And the last thing that i'll just add to what's been shared is i mean that's part of why we have this. This campaign, artists, are necessary, workers. It's this idea of reinforcing. That, what we do. Each of our individual. Roles, within the arts ecology. The agents, the dancers the photographers. The videographers, the choreographers. The performers. All do labor that is. Worth, compensating. Worth acknowledging. Worth recognizing. And in these small ways that it appears, like in the. In our contracts, as a deposit, versus a payment right it's like acknowledging. That at each stage of the of our, commitment. We're doing work that should be, remunerated. Uh. Any, thoughts or comments, on on, and then i might shift uh. Yeah. Well i think the first thing in response, to lane's comment, around. You said urgency. And thoughtfulness, and it made me think a little bit lame if you don't mind me bringing up your athletic, history. As a performer, as someone who has that sort of relationship. To athleticism. And can understand. Sort of figuratively. This relationship. To push and pull or this relationship, to. Um. Endurance. Right now, one of the pandemics, that you bring up that we are also wrestling, with and that is equally. Killing. People, killing, american, people, is our issue with systemic, racism. And it has been that way right for generations. And so, what we have a tremendous, opportunity, what i've been saying outside, my house or, on instagram, is like copen19. The great equalizer. I've been saying this because what it's made us all do is stop, and then deal with the things that are going to re-emerge. To be at our both our human, deficit. Whether we get over covet 19, or not. And to me what that requires. Is a marathon-like. Movement. Where sometimes, you're pushing, you're running and you're responding, with urgency. In the way that you described. And where sometimes you're walking as you were saying anna. Mindfully. As you were saying laura, mindfully. And so then that makes me think about who's really good at that. Artists. We are incredible. At that. We hurry up and pull the grant together, and the project proposal. We make the phone calls we gather the resources. We put together the proposal. We put we get it forward, and then we take our time and chip away and make that thing manifest. Artists, are really, good, i feel, i know, and i come out of a lineage, of artists who are really. Good at this pacing. And so artists, led movements, what i love about both creating new futures. About juma tattoo post study sessions. About all of the work i've been seeing with winston, dynamite. And, um, the folks out of uh new orleans junebug, pro junebug productions. Um. God and then it just keeps going, on and on what i've seen, both online, on instagram, and in these relationships, are these innovative. Approaches, to these practices. To these practices, that are amoebic. That aren't on a single, world that aren't telling us this is the single direction that we're all gonna go, but are putting forth the possibilities. What i'm proposing, to the, to the field. Is what it's going to require, from our administrators, from our organizations. Is risk. That's where emergency. Is going to come, it's for us. For our, field. To say. Artists. Not just what do you think but how do i invest. In this vision how do i invest. In this collective. Action. Rather than the tokenization. That exhausts. Us, and perpetuates. These cycles. How do i invest, in the thinking that is coming out of these creative, beings. Who have made a profession. At doing that, and who have made a profession, of being cross-sector. In our visioning. So that we can, come out of this, new, and better. Yeah, i think what marjani. Beautifully, describes, there is a much more expansive. Picture, of. The work that artists can do. And too often i think when we talk about touring, we get down to the. Idea of a performative, deliverable. You know before, the one show the one night and a large space, for the four. Thursday, through sunday run. And it way, simplifies. What artists do. And i think that this moment, is making us, i think the opportunity, we have, is to better articulate, the way that marjani, just did.
The The kind of roles that artists can play, within our institutions. Within our communities. And the risk maybe is to define, that and go ahead and contract, behind it sign, artists up for longer periods of time. I think that's right, um i see laura you want to say something you go go ahead go ahead you sure, no go go well i was just going to say one of the, one of the contractual. Solutions. Of one of our our. Clients, came up with was that she. Took her typical. Engagement, structure, lane, and she said you know what let's make it a let's make it a two season, commitment. Let's make it a two-part, engagement. I'm gonna do this virtual, part right now. Kind of a teaser. I'm going to come back in a year. And i'll be there live. But, and this is a. A. Very this involves, local dancers. It's community, oriented. You know it's a huge project, it's not just show up lights and tights perform go home, it's a it's a community. Engagement. Anyway. It's a residency, engagement, anyway. What on earth do you do with a residency, engagement, in the middle of a pandemic. Christ you know, shut down, so she, crafted, it part one, part two, i love, that two season commitment. I love it, and for me contractually. I've just had to amend. Those agreements. Or, i'm starting fresh with a brand new venue, who says yes i want some of that, because i want, that artist. The only way that artists can be present for my community, right now, is through a screen. Okay. I'll book them that way, and i'll bring them back in a year live, i love that. The the other one of the other examples, that's happening a lot in the music industry. Is the drive-in. Situation. I never thought the million world, war. Years, i would have a drive in engagement. I actually have an intro a driving, engagement. For one of my contemporary. Theater companies. Because the venue, is going to show a full-length recording, of the film. And then they're going to have, live musicians. Performing, music. And the audience, will be in cars. Never come on if you ask told me that a year from, a year ago i would have said you're kidding. So there are. Ways, to, bring, the artist, present. And to make it, a more embedded, engagement. And we do definitely. Have. Um, an opportunity. Here to do our jobs, better. And i think. That the data coming from the canceled, engagements. From the spring, through now that have the engagements, that have been. Refigured. For the screen. They are showing. That, other. New audiences. That will never buy a ticket, to ever walk into our theaters. They are showing, up. They're showing up. And from their living rooms. And that's fantastic. And we need to do a great job, to keep those people engaged. A year and two and three from now so that maybe they do come to the theater. Or. Maybe we have this hybrid, engagement. Where. You are performing, live but the venue is still able to offer a living. A live stream. So that those audiences. For whatever. Reason. Will never buy a ticket they'll be able to experience. This incredible, work. So we do have we have a new opportunity, here that we need. To make the best of. I think, we're. All already, sort of answering, this but. And marzani, directly, answered the question in terms of what are the new frameworks, or leading principles, that are coming, to you because, of. Having to deal with kovid, because of having to deal with, the onslaught of racial violence. Um and this, huge. Um overhaul, and call for equity in the arts like, what like for instance, majani, is basically, like, what she's asking people offering to people is to lead with risk, right, to take a chance to try new things to rely, on artists, to to lead you into our process, because, that's what they are well positioned to do so. Um, and elaine you spoke up you started talking about this a little bit more but i just want to make sure that we're explicit, and talking about that.
Yeah Well uh, you know. Before, the pandemics. Uh. Or, the most recent, um iterations. Uh. You know i, we, jamil. Kosoka, is a fellow for us, and. You know i'm aware of the kind of, symbolic, capital. Uh as my boss says, uh that can go along with working with an artist like jamil. And so i think the way that you have to. Make that meaningful, is you have to supersize. It and you really have to figure out how you're. Lining up behind an artist and having that artist lead your institution, and, essentially, change your institution. And so. You know and that was happening before, but then it allowed us to because of that. Then it allowed us to play right into. The necessity. Of having to do online programming, because jamil was already. Making, work, that he wanted to sort of de-center. The black body, and the, portrayal, of black pain from the middle of a performance, because it was. Really, uh taking a lot out of him so he conceptualized. The performance, differently. This new, round of performance. And, um, and so it really lends itself to, being an online, kind of proposition. We were already talking, about jameel, as a curator. Jamil. Um setting up future. Performance, platforms. Um, so. You know for me that that kind of investment's, the kind of investment, that can. Change your institution. Who's a part of it who's represented, in it who's making decisions. Um. Jameel, and another artist. Held space, for poc, members of our community, exclusively, for poc, members of our community, a few weeks ago, now those were leaders in our community, other artists. To really get together, and just, spend some time, and i. You know and i think that, these kinds of efforts. Along with with others. Um are the kinds of things you know to anna's point you know hearing value statements from somebody like me is annoying, at some point because it's like. What are you actually, doing, to change this. Um, and i i think the, thing that i've always struggled with in our field is. What those collective, conversations. Look like because, i mean frankly when i'm around them i have existential, crises, because. I think that these systems, have never worked, these this notion of touring has never worked and i've always had to i've always felt like i've had to differentiate. From it, i mean especially, being a contemporary. Producer, of contemporary. Work, new work, by artists who. Largely. In many cases don't have touring, backgrounds, or it's really hard for them to tour. And so. Figuring out support mechanisms. For artists in that way. Um. Is a different proposition. So i i've never i've never known how to, collectively. Organize, in our field, all i've known how to do is go back and try and be as bold as possible. Within the institutional, framework, from which i'm working. Yeah. Um, and i think the thing that i'm hearing is basically, because of the already. Deep. Relationship, that you have with an artist like jameel, allowed, you, to. Deepen that relationship, even further and allow them to leave you know what i mean like it wasn't like a new relation that that you were trying to start in response, to. What's happening, it's. Leveraging. Or not i shouldn't say leverage because that's that has been like a negative connotation, but. The basis, or the foundation, for those deep relationships, was already there so i think, um. I appreciate that about what you said. Other folks. But what you just said, i feel candace. I feel like leans into the. One of the things i sort of, have been saying, is like a hashtag, get well, to our organizations. Like again, pandemic. Crisis, but. We're actually. Our organizations. Our presenters. Are our. Our dance field or performing, arts ecology. Needs a get well, process. And what that is what that is is the process, of healing. And getting, right with, the other crises. That we've been dealing with why we keep replicating, these models, of tokenite. Why we keep replicating, these models, of white supremacy, in our organizations.
Why Our boards, are all white while our administrators. Are our, administrators. Are all white. And then we bring, in. Two. Atmos. Experimental, black artists a year. Or experimental. Black, indigenous. You know what i'm saying why we do that why that is repeating, itself. And part of that get well work is just as important, as any. From the inside, out, as organizations. And so how are white folks dealing with it, right how are people of color, coming to terms with the way that we've internalized, the messages, that we've been told about ourselves. And there are many folks, that are committed, to that work. In this field. Right urban bush women has really been a major, part, of, bringing. Folks together. To get inside, of that work with the people's institute, for survival, and beyond. And so i think that, one of the things i just want to note, is that, part of that marathon. That i propose, that we are on. Part of that, urgency. Is that we're asking, when i say we because i'm a part of a collective i'm a part of, a. Quilt of folks who work and think and are like-minded. In our processes. We're asking, presenters, organizations. In the field. What is, not just i don't want to just read your document, i want to understand your practices, i want to understand. Thinking, i don't want to go back into this hamster, wheel, of being that single, artist. As an artist who's done well at that. As an artist who's been a beneficiary. Of that i still do i still move forward looking at the eventual. End of my term. From that. And so i think that's part of what i just want to put that out there that. While we're looking at how do we recover, quickly from the touring. I'm also asking, our organizations. Both white led organizations. And, black led organizations. To less, less also do the work of getting well. Yeah. I think that's right. You know the only thing i would add to that, you know because you know from from a scale, standpoint, you know dth. Is. What i would consider a medium, size. Particularly. You know relative, to. Um, you know our our, counterparts. Alien. And abt. And some of these other folks. Is, you know i think what's also. Showing up because i i totally agree with you marjani, and dth, has also been a beneficiary.
Of This, sort of segmentation. That happens. Um. I was having this fabulous, conversation. With um our artistic director virginia, johnson and she was. Sharing with me, um a conversation. That she'd had with a colleague. Who expressed. That. Um we were sort of swinging in this this other direction. And now. Um he couldn't get presented. Because, he didn't have any black dancers in his company. And i you know virginia and i were sort of chuckling, i said well you know we have done with years, of hearing, from presenters. That you know. I've already booked my black company. For the. Or, you know, we can only get booked in you know february. For black history month and so, you know we we've you know you're absolutely right there is a there's a wellness there's a healing, there there are some deep conversations. About how. And and, um. We, we have been um. Perpetrating. These, these systems, and we have been existing, in these systems, for so long that we don't even know how to extricate, ourselves. From these conversations. The the flip side of that, too, you know from from dth's. Perspective, and i, i want to speak on behalf of some of the mid-sized. Companies. And and you know it'll, probably be just you know us and and belly hispanic. Really, out there. But. Um. You know, we are so. Um. Uh, handcuffed. To. The. Um. The the, income. Right it is like what we're what we're really ultimately, asking is that we need to extricate. Ourselves, from this model. So that we can actually be free. To do. Um and to to reinvent, this, this, this new world right, if you're an organization, like dth. That kind of scares the. Out of me frankly, because. You know how i, have my weeks, and how i pay my dancers, is based on how many weeks of touring, i have right, like we we don't have a cash reserve. We don't have an endowment. Um. You know it is cash in cash out for us, and so. Um you know while. This reset, button is exciting. It is also, scary, and it also sort of speaks, to the inequities. That exist, for organizations. Like dth. And, valley hispanico. And urban bush women frankly. Where we have always, been under-resourced. To begin with. And so. This new this conversation. Is also going to require. Us to really think about what does investment. In artists, mean what is investment. You know in art organizations, that look like dth, what does that mean. What are the relationships. With the presenting, community. You know. Uh. Touring, was an economic. You know it yes it was about.
Bringing The arts to community, i will not dismiss, that and certainly it is ingrained, in dth's. Mission it's why we can be performing, in macon georgia, at the same time as we're in atlanta, georgia. However, it was an economic, mechanism. Right. And. In all economic, mechanisms. There is supply. And there is demand, right we still live within a capitalist. System, and so. Even with us reinventing. That there are structures, that we're going to have to continue, fighting, against. As a collective. And it is going to impact, some organizations. More so than others there are some organizations. That are going to financially, be able to. Deal with. The, um. The the, the uh. Um, what's the word oh my gosh i can't even think the the, the floor, shifting, right because we're going to be shifting there's going to be a lot of movement and some of us have, cash reserves and endowments, that we can sort of bump with that a little bit and some of us don't. You know and so i think that also, has to be a part of this conversation. When we are talking about. Let's. Change, this, this model i'm all for that because i this model doesn't work. And i don't want to be dependent, upon, this income. And it is going to be a minute for me, to get, into a place. Where. That doesn't, you know i can roll with the punches, right and so. That's also just something that i want to call forth. That. You know. For some of us, and i think it's that that mid-range. It's going to be a little bit harder to be nimble, in this conversation. Yeah. I use uh i use nutcracker, as a metaphor, how how can your ballet company live without, its nutcracker, how can your, institution. Live without whatever its nutcracker. Is. I have to say what really resonated. With me candace when you opened was that, comment. Touring, is a closed, network. Of privileged. Relationships. Like, oh. That's, that, wow, wrote that down, and. My tagline. For that. Is. Yes. Based on the undervalued. Underpaid. Labor. Of artists. And that's why, it doesn't work. Touring. Is. Has, not. In general. Truly, been, profitable. It hasn't worked for a long time. Artists are not being paid a living